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  1. #1
    Joel Koltner
    Guest
    "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > year. this is good news for everyone!


    Not unless prices on iPhones drop significantly. Many people just don't use
    any 3rd-party applications on their phone in the first place -- probably at
    least 2/3rd of them: They're buying a phone based on what it can do "out of
    the box" and price.

    But I agree it's good news that Apple's opening up the iPhone to proper
    development.





    See More: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone




  2. #2
    Kurt
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Joel Koltner" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]..
    > > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > > year. this is good news for everyone!

    >
    > Not unless prices on iPhones drop significantly. Many people just don't use
    > any 3rd-party applications on their phone in the first place -- probably at
    > least 2/3rd of them: They're buying a phone based on what it can do "out of
    > the box" and price.



    The reason most people don't use phones with 3rd party apps is because
    they didn't come installed in them.

    And then they'd need to pay extra for any of the good (i.e. stable)
    programs and have to go through a download and installation process.

    --
    To reply by email, remove the word "space"



  3. #3
    Ness Net
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone


    "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    >
    > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > year. this is good news for everyone!
    >
    > -
    >


    As always, you just don't get it....

    Example:
    Blackberry = business tool
    iPhone = cool toy - NOT a business tool (unless radically changed in the
    future)

    Bottom line, your prediction based on today's facts is stupid.

    As usual.




  4. #4
    Oxford
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    "Joel Koltner" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > > year. this is good news for everyone!

    >
    > Not unless prices on iPhones drop significantly.


    well, we all know that is going to happen within 24 months, an iPhone
    nano for $199 is in the works, a $99 iPhone within 36 months. Apple
    ALWAYS starts at the top and works its way down the price scale. So it's
    only a question "of when" Apple sweeps out the lower handset makers.

    > Many people just don't use
    > any 3rd-party applications on their phone in the first place --


    ah... WHAT? I think you must be using Windows. In the Apple world,
    people use whatever they want since it's so EASY to try new software.

    In the Windows world everyone has been "conditioned" to not try new
    software, but nothing like that exists in the Apple space since there
    are no penalties for using new software. The iPhone is the PERFECT
    device to try new software without any risk. Plus it's FAR easier to
    install / remove software on Macs / iPhones...

    So I just had to LAUGH at that since that's a pure Windows issue, not an
    Apple or iPhone one.

    > probably at
    > least 2/3rd of them: They're buying a phone based on what it can do "out of
    > the box" and price.


    But Apple will change all that... basically, the cell industry plays
    under Apple's rule from this point forward. Everyone wants an iPhone
    since it's more feature packed and far easier to use than any other cell
    phone... we all know that. So once Apple moves the iPhone down the price
    scale, it will remove "most" handset makers out of the market.

    > But I agree it's good news that Apple's opening up the iPhone to proper
    > development.


    Yes, it's going to be a massive wave of innovation never before seen by
    the cell industry. Never has such a large computer firm entered the cell
    space, and since the cell industry is very uncompetitive, Apple will
    wipe out much of what exists today... so it's going to fun to watch them
    fall.

    -



  5. #5
    David Empson
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    Joel Koltner <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]..
    > > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > > year. this is good news for everyone!

    >
    > Not unless prices on iPhones drop significantly. Many people just don't use
    > any 3rd-party applications on their phone in the first place -- probably at
    > least 2/3rd of them: They're buying a phone based on what it can do "out of
    > the box" and price.


    It also applies to the iPod Touch.

    For anyone wanting an advanced highly portable computer, but doesn't
    need the additional features of the iPhone (or the long term contract)
    this makes the iPod Touch even more interesting.

    The PDA market isn't as large as the cellphone market, but the iPod
    Touch, iPhone or a future slightly larger model with full PDA
    functionality and third party application support will be very
    competitive with other brands and platforms, and could easily take over
    that market.

    > But I agree it's good news that Apple's opening up the iPhone to proper
    > development.


    This has removed one of my main reasons for not considering an iPod
    Touch or an iPhone as a potential replacement for my dying Palm Treo
    600. I do use third party software on my Treo and would like to be able
    to do so on a replacement device.

    I don't want to go to Windows Mobile because it doesn't work well with
    the Mac.

    Palm has dropped the ball on PalmOS, and a device based on OS X is far
    more appealing to me as a Mac user.

    I want a device which has full iPod, PDA and cellphone functionality.

    If I can't get all three, I'm willing to sacrifice the phone (use a
    cheap cellphone instead) but keep portable music and PDA functions on
    one device.
    --
    David Empson
    [email protected]



  6. #6
    Oxford
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    "Ness Net" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > As always, you just don't get it....
    >
    > Example:
    > Blackberry = business tool
    > iPhone = cool toy - NOT a business tool (unless radically changed in the
    > future)


    it was radically changed about 8 hours ago. didn't you get the memo?

    no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone they
    will be miniscule by this time next year. all business software
    developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that is the future
    of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance against apple at this
    point in the game.

    > Bottom line, your prediction based on today's facts is stupid.


    What? Apple has totally altered markets before beyond recognition, this
    is no different. Sure it takes awhile for people to catch up with what
    I'm saying, but they always do when they see what is happening around
    them.



  7. #7
    Ness_net
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone


    "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    >
    > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone they
    > will be miniscule by this time next year. all business software
    > developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that is the future
    > of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance against apple at this
    > point in the game.
    >



    Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an actual clue.

    Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus percent
    of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.

    They won't give a **** if 3rd party apps are loaded. The DEVICE is flawed.

    You can go on and on and on like you do - you have less than ZERO credibility at this point.

    Every post continues to proves it - again and again.

    Like this one... Just another fantasy based wish from a deluded, fanatic fanboy.





  8. #8
    ZnU
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Ness_net" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected].
    > .
    > >
    > > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone
    > > they will be miniscule by this time next year. all business
    > > software developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that
    > > is the future of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance
    > > against apple at this point in the game.
    > >

    >
    >
    > Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an
    > actual clue.
    >
    > Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus
    > percent of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will
    > BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.


    This is a dumb claim. Yes, everything currently runs as root on an
    iPhone. But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.

    OS X provides a real permissions model, sandboxing, and application
    signing. I can't offhand think of a mobile platform that implements all
    three. Apple is also reusing robust battle-tested code from a real
    operating system. You can bet there have been a hell of a lot more hours
    invested in hardening the BSD networking stack than in hardening
    whatever proprietary networking code a BlackBerry has.

    Security is just one of many areas where the fact that the iPhone is
    using a slimmed down version of a real desktop OS gives Apple
    significant advantages over its competitors. (Well, except possibly its
    Linux-based competitors, but at least in the US Linux-based phones don't
    seem to have gotten anywhere.)

    [snip]

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007



  9. #9
    ZnU
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Joel Koltner" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]..
    > > expect sales of WinMobile, Symbian and Blackberries to dry up within a
    > > year. this is good news for everyone!

    >
    > Not unless prices on iPhones drop significantly. Many people just don't use
    > any 3rd-party applications on their phone in the first place -- probably at
    > least 2/3rd of them: They're buying a phone based on what it can do "out of
    > the box" and price.


    You're making the mistake of comparing the iPhone's price to the price
    of other phones. You might want to consider that the iPhone in the first
    phone on the market which can reasonably take the place of an iPod, and
    look at what people will happily pay for iPods.

    (And yes, I'm quite aware there have been other music player phones, but
    as we see in the music player market itself, most people don't consider
    other music players to be reasonable iPod substitutes.)

    Anyway, I'd expect Apple to be pretty aggressive with pricing. Because
    they sell 80% of the world's music players, they can probably get better
    prices on most components than their competitors.

    > But I agree it's good news that Apple's opening up the iPhone to proper
    > development.


    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007



  10. #10
    Peter Hayes
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    ZnU <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Ness_net" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected].
    > > .
    > > >
    > > > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone
    > > > they will be miniscule by this time next year. all business
    > > > software developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that
    > > > is the future of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance
    > > > against apple at this point in the game.
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > > Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an
    > > actual clue.
    > >
    > > Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus
    > > percent of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will
    > > BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.

    >
    > This is a dumb claim. Yes, everything currently runs as root on an
    > iPhone. But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    > platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.


    It most certainly isn't.

    > OS X provides a real permissions model, sandboxing, and application
    > signing. I can't offhand think of a mobile platform that implements all
    > three. Apple is also reusing robust battle-tested code from a real
    > operating system. You can bet there have been a hell of a lot more hours
    > invested in hardening the BSD networking stack than in hardening
    > whatever proprietary networking code a BlackBerry has.


    I suspect the iPhone runs a multi-user os set up as a single-user system
    but not as root. To run it as root is playing with fire.

    --

    Immunity is better than innoculation.

    Peter



  11. #11
    ZnU
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    In article <1i66kzq.17de1xaime2uvN%[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Peter Hayes) wrote:

    > ZnU <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "Ness_net" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected].
    > > > .
    > > > >
    > > > > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone
    > > > > they will be miniscule by this time next year. all business
    > > > > software developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that
    > > > > is the future of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance
    > > > > against apple at this point in the game.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an
    > > > actual clue.
    > > >
    > > > Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus
    > > > percent of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will
    > > > BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.

    > >
    > > This is a dumb claim. Yes, everything currently runs as root on an
    > > iPhone. But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    > > platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.

    >
    > It most certainly isn't.


    Of course it is. Running as root simply means there are no user-based
    permissions that prevent processes from doing whatever they like.
    Single-user operating systems don't have user-based permissions at all,
    therefore there obviously can't be any user-based permissions that
    prevent processes from doing whatever they like.

    The "don't run anything as root" mantra has been repeated so many times
    that people have some sort of irrational fear of it. It's true that it's
    less secure than the alternatives offered by multi-user operating
    systems... but running OS 9 or Windows 98, one was essentially always
    running as root, and the same is true of most mobile operating systems
    today.

    [snip]

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007



  12. #12
    Ness Net
    Guest

    Can you say biggest security blunder of the 21st century to date?

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2191348,00.asp

    First, the iPhone root password was broken. OK, it happens. But now it seems
    that all applications run on the iPhone as root. Can you say biggest
    security blunder of the 21st century to date?



    "ZnU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Ness_net" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected].
    >> .
    >> >
    >> > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone
    >> > they will be miniscule by this time next year. all business
    >> > software developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that
    >> > is the future of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance
    >> > against apple at this point in the game.
    >> >

    >>
    >>
    >> Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an
    >> actual clue.
    >>
    >> Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus
    >> percent of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will
    >> BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.

    >
    > This is a dumb claim. Yes, everything currently runs as root on an
    > iPhone. But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    > platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.
    >
    > OS X provides a real permissions model, sandboxing, and application
    > signing. I can't offhand think of a mobile platform that implements all
    > three. Apple is also reusing robust battle-tested code from a real
    > operating system. You can bet there have been a hell of a lot more hours
    > invested in hardening the BSD networking stack than in hardening
    > whatever proprietary networking code a BlackBerry has.
    >
    > Security is just one of many areas where the fact that the iPhone is
    > using a slimmed down version of a real desktop OS gives Apple
    > significant advantages over its competitors. (Well, except possibly its
    > Linux-based competitors, but at least in the US Linux-based phones don't
    > seem to have gotten anywhere.)
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > --
    > "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War
    > coming
    > out any other way."
    > --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4,
    > 2007
    >





  13. #13
    ZnU
    Guest

    Re: Can you say biggest security blunder of the 21st century to date?

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Ness Net" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [top-posting fixed]

    > "ZnU" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "Ness_net" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> "Oxford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected].
    > >> .
    > >> >
    > >> > no, blackberry doesn't stand a chance since by unit sales alone
    > >> > they will be miniscule by this time next year. all business
    > >> > software developers will FLOCK to the iPhone since they know that
    > >> > is the future of all smart phones. RIMM doesn't stand a chance
    > >> > against apple at this point in the game.
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Just the above statement proves you don't have even a fraction of an
    > >> actual clue.
    > >>
    > >> Everything runs as root on an iPhone, which will keep 95% plus
    > >> percent of the (smart anyway) IT depts away - and most do and will
    > >> BAN the pretty (but flawed) toy.

    > >
    > > This is a dumb claim. Yes, everything currently runs as root on an
    > > iPhone. But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    > > platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.
    > >
    > > OS X provides a real permissions model, sandboxing, and application
    > > signing. I can't offhand think of a mobile platform that implements all
    > > three. Apple is also reusing robust battle-tested code from a real
    > > operating system. You can bet there have been a hell of a lot more hours
    > > invested in hardening the BSD networking stack than in hardening
    > > whatever proprietary networking code a BlackBerry has.
    > >
    > > Security is just one of many areas where the fact that the iPhone is
    > > using a slimmed down version of a real desktop OS gives Apple
    > > significant advantages over its competitors. (Well, except possibly its
    > > Linux-based competitors, but at least in the US Linux-based phones don't
    > > seem to have gotten anywhere.)

    >
    > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2191348,00.asp
    >
    > First, the iPhone root password was broken. OK, it happens. But now it seems
    > that all applications run on the iPhone as root. Can you say biggest
    > security blunder of the 21st century to date?


    Did you not understand anything I wrote above?

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007



  14. #14
    pltrgyst
    Guest

    Re: Can you say biggest security blunder of the 21st century to date?

    On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:17:00 -0700, "Ness Net"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >First, the iPhone root password was broken. OK, it happens. But now it seems
    >that all applications run on the iPhone as root. Can you say biggest
    >security blunder of the 21st century to date?


    Wasn't W re-elected in 2004?

    -- Larry



  15. #15
    Peter Hayes
    Guest

    Re: Apple To Allow Third Party Apps ON iPhone

    ZnU <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <1i66kzq.17de1xaime2uvN%[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] (Peter Hayes) wrote:
    >
    > > ZnU <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > But running an app in a non-multiuser OS (what most other mobile
    > > > platforms have) is the same thing as running an app as root.

    > >
    > > It most certainly isn't.

    >
    > Of course it is. Running as root simply means there are no user-based
    > permissions that prevent processes from doing whatever they like.
    > Single-user operating systems don't have user-based permissions at all,


    The iPhone uses a version of OS X, so we're told, which certainly isn't
    a single-user OS. Do you believe Apple's developers turned it into a
    single-user OS? I very much doubt it, that would be throwing away major
    development potential further down the line, like a multi user
    permissions based iPhone, possibly using fingerprint access.

    > therefore there obviously can't be any user-based permissions that
    > prevent processes from doing whatever they like.


    Why not? Separate root processes from user processes with only Apple
    updates having root access.

    With third party apps now available, how long do you suppose it'll be
    before some enterprising hacker creates an exploit to record calls and
    e-mail them to him? Most would be boring as hell, but dropping that
    exploit on Jobs' iPhone might be very interesting, or even Sweaty's,
    assuming he'd get one... Easier to implement if you know the user is
    running as root.

    > The "don't run anything as root" mantra has been repeated so many times
    > that people have some sort of irrational fear of it.


    The mantra is there for a very good reason, and if people have an
    irrational fear of running as root that's because they don't understand
    why.

    > It's true that it's
    > less secure than the alternatives offered by multi-user operating
    > systems... but running OS 9 or Windows 98, one was essentially always
    > running as root, and the same is true of most mobile operating systems
    > today.


    And look at the shambles that was Windows 98 security. MacOS had its
    fair share of exploits too.

    --

    Immunity is better than innoculation.

    Peter



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