Sprint renewed my contract without telling me

"JRW" <no_addy@no_.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> she said she wasn't there to argue with me.

Translation: "I insist that a contract exists even though I have absolutely
no evidence of it whatsoever."

This approach is not quite so unreasonable if Sprint's lawyers are at least
honest enough *not* to report such a case to the credit agencies. Actually
reporting such a case to credit agencies (as if it were a just debt) is, of
course, defamation of character.

Do we know for certain whether Sprint reports such false cases to the credit
agencies?

---

› See More: Sprint renewed my contract without telling me

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sure they do. Whether you agreed or not is in question, not the existance
> of the contract. Credit agencies do not do investigative work to verify
> whether you agreed or not, that is up to legal representation.

Your logic is absurd. By definition, a contract requires the consent of
both parties, otherwise it isn't a contract. By definition!

What you are actually asserting is that credit agencies, though they claim
to investigate consumer complaints of false reports, actually do no such
thing. If you are right, we need a Congressional investigation. Literally.

"Lawrence G. Mayka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Your logic is absurd. By definition, a contract requires the consent of
> both parties, otherwise it isn't a contract. By definition!
>

Well DUH!

It would clearly be an invalid contract. However, it is a contract which
can be collected on [until successfully disputed]. Clearly it can be
disupted and won if no such evidence exists that there was consent. The
credit reporting agencies are not the entities that will verify the validity
of the contract [they would be bogged down forever if they were]. This is
what I said and have been saying. It will almost certainly take a lawyer to
get such an issue resolved, unless you can get Sprint PCS to admit the
problem and remove the report themself.

> What you are actually asserting is that credit agencies, though they claim
> to investigate consumer complaints of false reports, actually do no such
> thing. If you are right, we need a Congressional investigation.
Literally.

No, that is not what I am claiming. It would not be a false report if
Sprint PCS reported to them that you did not pay off their contract. They
will investigate to the point of making sure legitimate paperwork is filed,
but they will not go and force Sprint PCS to show that they have a recording
of the customer consenting (or whatever method was used). That is a legal
[civil] issue. That is not to say that Sprint PCS won't realize this on
their own and fix the problem when the credit inquiry is made, but it
certainly does not force them too.

Tom Veldhouse

I asked for a copy of my written or oral consent to the 2 year contract.
She said she would transfer me. I spoke with a rep today after about a 10
minute hold. She told me it is an automatic agreement and I would have to
write the London KY address to get a copy of the "agreement".

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lawrence G. Mayka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Your logic is absurd. By definition, a contract requires the consent of
> > both parties, otherwise it isn't a contract. By definition!
> >
>
> Well DUH!
>
> It would clearly be an invalid contract. However, it is a contract which
> can be collected on [until successfully disputed]. Clearly it can be
> disupted and won if no such evidence exists that there was consent. The
> credit reporting agencies are not the entities that will verify the
validity
> of the contract [they would be bogged down forever if they were]. This is
> what I said and have been saying. It will almost certainly take a lawyer
to
> get such an issue resolved, unless you can get Sprint PCS to admit the
> problem and remove the report themself.
>
> > What you are actually asserting is that credit agencies, though they
claim
> > to investigate consumer complaints of false reports, actually do no such
> > thing. If you are right, we need a Congressional investigation.
> Literally.
>
> No, that is not what I am claiming. It would not be a false report if
> Sprint PCS reported to them that you did not pay off their contract. They
> will investigate to the point of making sure legitimate paperwork is
filed,
> but they will not go and force Sprint PCS to show that they have a
recording
> of the customer consenting (or whatever method was used). That is a legal
> [civil] issue. That is not to say that Sprint PCS won't realize this on
> their own and fix the problem when the credit inquiry is made, but it
> certainly does not force them too.
>
> Tom Veldhouse
>
>

I asked for a copy of my written or oral consent to the 2 year contract.
She said she would transfer me. I spoke with a rep today after about a 10
minute hold. She told me it is an automatic agreement and I would have to
write the London KY address to get a copy of the "agreement".

"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
newsiTxb.346079$Fm2.349885@attbi_s04...
> I just went to the sprint web page and signed in. When I looked at my
> contract details it said it expires in Oct 2004. My contract started Oct
> 2002 and was a 1 year contract. What is that all about?
>
>

"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8u3zb.399916$Fm2.409461@attbi_s04...
> I asked for a copy of my written or oral consent to the 2 year contract.
> She said she would transfer me. I spoke with a rep today after about a 10
> minute hold. She told me it is an automatic agreement and I would have to
> write the London KY address to get a copy of the "agreement".

I suspect you will just get the verbage and NOT the recording or copy of the
signature. I am not sure how online consent is handled. Make sure you are
VERY CLEAR about what you are requesting. Chances are you won't get it,
judging from past experiences I have had with big companies when asking for
something not so run-of-the-mill.

Tom Veldhouse

Jim <[email protected]> wrote:
> I asked for a copy of my written or oral consent to the 2 year contract.
> She said she would transfer me. I spoke with a rep today after about a 10
> minute hold. She told me it is an automatic agreement and I would have to
> write the London KY address to get a copy of the "agreement".

Give a reasonable amount of time -- say, a week or two; this is a big
company -- to get the info back to you. Send your letter with Return Receipt
(you may need to use Certified or Registered mail to do this) so you are
informed when the mail is received by SPCS, and give them a week or two after
that date.

When they don't give you anything, nail their asses to the wall.

--
JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services
22674 Motnocab Road * Apple Valley, CA 92307-1950
Steve Sobol, Proprietor
888.480.4NET (4638) * 248.724.4NET * [email protected]

"Jim" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote
in message <newsiTxb.346079$Fm2.349885@attbi_s04>...
I just went to the sprint web page and signed in. When I looked at my

> contract details it said it expires in Oct 2004. My contract started Oct
> 2002 and was a 1 year contract. What is that all about?


This happened to two relatives on AT&T as well. Apparently some carriers
routinely extend people's contracts without telling them and then wait for
people to complain about it.

In this case, I would not hesitate to move to another carrier, then put the
onus on them to prove that you signed up for a new contract in order to get
their termination fee. They will have to provide proof, which will be
difficult for them to do.

They may turn it over to a collection agency who will send you nasty
letters, then you'll have to write a letter explaining the situation and
warning them about the consequences of any negative information appearing on
your credit report and advising them to drop the matter.

The collection agency _could_ report you to the credit bureaus, but you do
have several avenues of recourse if they do that, including placing a letter
in your credit file explaining the situation, or suing them over it. And
realistically, you're not going to get a home loan or car loan refused or a
bumped up interest rate over a $175 item on an otherwise perfect credit
report, especially when you've disputed the item with a lucid explanation.
Some people let companies get away with murder with an irrational fear of
something negative appearing on their credit report, but the reality is that
if you have a reasonable defense of the negative information, and it's a
single minor item on an otherwise exemplary credit report then no creditor
pays any attention to it.

Definitely write a letter to your state's PUC, but forget about the BBB,
they're worthless. cc Sprint on the letter.

Steven M. Scharf wrote:

> The collection agency _could_ report you to the credit bureaus, but
> you do have several avenues of recourse if they do that, including
> placing a letter in your credit file explaining the situation, or
> suing them over it. And realistically, you're not going to get a home
> loan or car loan refused or a bumped up interest rate over a $175
> item on an otherwise perfect credit report, especially when you've
> disputed the item with a lucid explanation. Some people let companies
> get away with murder with an irrational fear of something negative
> appearing on their credit report, but the reality is that if you have
> a reasonable defense of the negative information, and it's a single
> minor item on an otherwise exemplary credit report then no creditor
> pays any attention to it.

The problem is that many loans are granted based upon your FICO score and
that is computed with little reguard for letters and lucid explanation.
Straw ... camel ... back.

Tom Veldhouse

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It would clearly be an invalid contract. However, it is a contract which
> can be collected on [until successfully disputed]. Clearly it can be

Without the consent of both parties, no contract exists *at all*, and to
pretend that one exists in order to extort money is fraudulent.

> disupted and won if no such evidence exists that there was consent. The
> credit reporting agencies are not the entities that will verify the
validity
> of the contract [they would be bogged down forever if they were]. This is

Are you claiming that any arbitrary company (or any company I have dealt
with) can falsely claim that they have a contract with me, and that upon my
complaint the credit agencies will not even bother to ask for evidence of
the contract? If so, the credit agencies are sorely in need of heavy
government regulation, because they are obviously and severely out of
kilter.

> No, that is not what I am claiming. It would not be a false report if
> Sprint PCS reported to them that you did not pay off their contract. They

If I did not actually consent, there is no contract, and if Sprint reports
that there is, Sprint is committing fraud.

> will investigate to the point of making sure legitimate paperwork is
filed,

Ay, there's the rub! I think you are really asserting that Sprint's
"paperwork"--i.e., its billing programs which are known, especially within
Sprint (!), to bogusly insert contracts where none exist--will be treated by
the credit agency as "evidence" of a contract. This again indicates that
the credit agencies (as well as Sprint) sorely need heavy government
regulation, because they should not be trusting a source *known* to be so
negligently unreliable.

"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:8u3zb.399916$Fm2.409461@attbi_s04...
> I asked for a copy of my written or oral consent to the 2 year contract.
> She said she would transfer me. I spoke with a rep today after about a 10
> minute hold. She told me it is an automatic agreement and I would have to
> write the London KY address to get a copy of the "agreement".

By this description, I *strongly* suspect that you will get merely the
verbiage of the supposed agreement, and not any evidence of your consent.
The term "automatic agreement" as much as tells you that Sprint arrogantly
asserts the power to "assign" you a contract without your consent.

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The problem is that many loans are granted based upon your FICO score and
> that is computed with little reguard for letters and lucid explanation.
> Straw ... camel ... back.
>
> Tom Veldhouse

Yes, this is true. However the credit reporting agencies have to remove
negative information if the creditor cannot prove that you owe them money.
In practice this is difficult. Still, if you have otherwise excellent
credit, your FICO score is high enough that the decrease caused by one
negative item of less than $200 is not going to make any difference. I.e.,
the discount you get for a high FICO score on a home mortgage is usually
above 680 or 700, and people with excellent credit are well into the mid to
high 700's so one small item isn't going to matter. OTOH, if you have
marginal credit then it could be the straw. OTOH, a lot of mortgage lenders
don't publicize the fact that there is a wholesale discount for high FICO
scores, and they keep the 1/4 point for themselves. The discount is actually
printed on the wholesale rate sheets, as is the discount for a low LTV
ratio. but most borrowers don't know how to get these rate sheets.

"Lawrence G. Mayka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> If I did not actually consent, there is no contract, and if Sprint reports
> that there is, Sprint is committing fraud.
>

Fraud is willful. I find it very unlikely that any contract extensions are
willful. Especially in the one case reported here of 30 days. Would taking
a willful risk for 30 days be beneficial? Not really. You do seem to
forget that wireless service providers have more oversight and watchdog
critics out there than just about any other industry. If they sneeze funny
there will be 10 reports about it on the internet in less than 30 seconds.
I find it very unlikely that Sprint has extended any contracts intentionally
and for the purpose of locking in customers without customers consent.

> > will investigate to the point of making sure legitimate paperwork is
> filed,
>
> Ay, there's the rub! I think you are really asserting that Sprint's
> "paperwork"--i.e., its billing programs which are known, especially within
> Sprint (!), to bogusly insert contracts where none exist--will be treated
by
> the credit agency as "evidence" of a contract. This again indicates that
> the credit agencies (as well as Sprint) sorely need heavy government
> regulation, because they should not be trusting a source *known* to be so
> negligently unreliable.
>

I am saying that a smudge on your credit report is just that. Sprint is a
big company that has a known history with collections. Equifax and others
are not going to track down Sprint's lawyers and subpoena a recording to see
if the contract is real or not. They have enough evidence to believe that
it is a valid collections event and will leave it to your lawyers to figure
out.

If you want to make out Sprint PCS to be a criminal and a fraud, that is
your own personal agenda, but it appears to be based on fantasy to me.

Tom Veldhouse

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I find it very unlikely that Sprint has extended any contracts
intentionally
> and for the purpose of locking in customers without customers consent.

If

a) Sprint's software automatically changes a customer's contract term
whenever certain kinds of changes are made, and

b) Sprint does not bother to rigorously train and force its representatives
to solicit and obtain customer consent each and every time such a change
occurs, and

c) Sprint's representatives nevertheless try to hold customers to such
unconsented contracts, then

Sprint is committing fraud, at least through willful negligence (effective
intent) if not through direct intent. A Sprint employee has asserted (a).
A large number of Sprint customers are asserting (b) and (c).

> I am saying that a smudge on your credit report is just that. Sprint is a
> big company that has a known history with collections. Equifax and others
> are not going to track down Sprint's lawyers and subpoena a recording to
see
> if the contract is real or not. They have enough evidence to believe that
> it is a valid collections event and will leave it to your lawyers to
figure
> out.

But the credit agencies explicitly claim that upon a customer complaint,
they will "investigate" a black mark. You are asserting that this
"investigation" is essentially phony--that the credit agency will not even
bother to ask for any evidence beyond the merchant's own self-serving bogus
"paperwork."

"Lawrence G. Mayka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> But the credit agencies explicitly claim that upon a customer complaint,
> they will "investigate" a black mark. You are asserting that this
> "investigation" is essentially phony--that the credit agency will not even
> bother to ask for any evidence beyond the merchant's own self-serving
bogus
> "paperwork."
>


The investigation is the same as the one done by the FCC, BBB, State
Consumer Protection Agency, State Attourney General or any other
organization you choose to report a dispute to. A letter is sent to the
company in question, accompanied by a copy of your original complaint, and
the company is instructed to respond to the agency with their 'resolution'
to the situation. An acceptable 'resolution' in many of these cases is
nothing more than a simple verification of the charges in question, with
little or no documentation involved. As long as they contact you and the
agency within the allotted time, they have met their obligation to these
agencies. At no point does a representative of any of these agencies do
more than examine the documents provided by the company. No independent
investigation is done.

That being said, and having previously worked in the 'dispute' department
for a large service corporation for about 3 years, I will say that I saw
complaints from all of the agencies listed above, credit card companies and
television 'consumer watchdog' programs, but I NEVER saw anything that
originated from a credit reporting bureau......NEVER. And the reason why
this happened is the same reason it will never happen at Sprint- Sprint is
not going to be the one reporting you to the reporting bureau. The debt
will be listed by whatever third-party collection agency they sell your
delinquent account to. Your dispute now is between you and a company whose
only interest is collecting every penny they can get from you. If presented
with a dispute, they will more than likely contact their 'customer' (in this
case Sprint) and ask them if the charges are valid. They will simply pass on
whatever documentation Sprint decides togive them, and the dispute is
resolved. In all fairness, true mistakes (billing error, payment error,
etc) will more than likely be corrected by the original company. But in any
contract dispute, their burden of proof is as simple as providing you with
documentation that backs up their claim.