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  1. #1
    Kovie
    Guest
    I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to access the
    internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden under the TOS,
    so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems to be no more than
    300-500MB/month).

    Is it because:

    1 - It's not worth their time and expense to go after people who don't abuse
    this "policy".

    2 - They don't want to risk losing non-abusing customers by going after
    them.

    3 - They believe that this "look the other way" policy actually attracts
    customers, and gives them an incentive to sign up for unlimited Vision.

    4 - They're tracking this usage in order to develop a profitable business
    model for charging for such usage, which they'll eventually roll out.

    5 - Some other reason?

    Just curious.

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





    See More: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?




  2. #2
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Sorry, I meant for this to be a new post, not a response, but hit the "Reply
    to Group" button by mistake. My mistake. Ignore this reply, respond to new
    post instead.

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





  3. #3
    Bob Smith
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?


    "Kovie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]_s53...
    > I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to access

    the
    > internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden under the TOS,
    > so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems to be no more than
    > 300-500MB/month).
    >
    > Is it because:
    >
    > 1 - It's not worth their time and expense to go after people who don't

    abuse
    > this "policy".
    >
    > 2 - They don't want to risk losing non-abusing customers by going after
    > them.
    >
    > 3 - They believe that this "look the other way" policy actually attracts
    > customers, and gives them an incentive to sign up for unlimited Vision.
    >
    > 4 - They're tracking this usage in order to develop a profitable business
    > model for charging for such usage, which they'll eventually roll out.
    >
    > 5 - Some other reason?
    >
    > Just curious.


    Could be any one of these answers.

    Bob





  4. #4
    Steph
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    "Kovie" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]_s53:

    > I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to
    > access the internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden
    > under the TOS, so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems
    > to be no more than 300-500MB/month).


    I get charged no matter what.
    I have only used the tethered access sparingly when connected, and only
    maybe 7-10 days total out of a year.

    > Is it because:
    >
    > 1 - It's not worth their time and expense to go after people who don't
    > abuse this "policy".


    Not in my mind.

    > 2 - They don't want to risk losing non-abusing customers by going
    > after them.


    Again, doesn't seem to be my experience.

    > 3 - They believe that this "look the other way" policy actually
    > attracts customers, and gives them an incentive to sign up for
    > unlimited Vision.
    >


    Improperly managing expectations is just a recipe for disaster. I have
    unlimited Vision (and it appears my account was modified somehow back
    when they did a warranty replacement on the handset), yet get charged
    for virtually any internet access. I don't even use the vision on the
    handset hardly now.

    > 4 - They're tracking this usage in order to develop a profitable
    > business model for charging for such usage, which they'll eventually
    > roll out.


    Couldn't even care at this point.

    > 5 - Some other reason?
    >
    > Just curious.
    >





  5. #5
    Isaiah Beard
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Kovie wrote:
    > I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to access the
    > internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden under the TOS,
    > so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems to be no more than
    > 300-500MB/month).
    >
    > Is it because:
    >
    > 1 - It's not worth their time and expense to go after people who don't abuse
    > this "policy".
    >
    > 2 - They don't want to risk losing non-abusing customers by going after
    > them.
    >
    > 3 - They believe that this "look the other way" policy actually attracts
    > customers, and gives them an incentive to sign up for unlimited Vision.
    >
    > 4 - They're tracking this usage in order to develop a profitable business
    > model for charging for such usage, which they'll eventually roll out.
    >
    > 5 - Some other reason?



    Probably more like:

    6 - There's no definitive mechanism to determine whether someone is
    really connecting a laptop or just really into using Vision services.
    So, they go after the users that anyone would clearly know could not
    possibly have transferred 600, 700, 800 megabytes, 2 gigs - by just
    browsing away on their vision phones.


    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.




  6. #6
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?



    "Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Kovie wrote:
    >> I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to access
    >> the internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden under the
    >> TOS, so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems to be no
    >> more than 300-500MB/month).
    >>
    >> Is it because:
    >>
    >> 1 - It's not worth their time and expense to go after people who don't
    >> abuse this "policy".
    >>
    >> 2 - They don't want to risk losing non-abusing customers by going after
    >> them.
    >>
    >> 3 - They believe that this "look the other way" policy actually attracts
    >> customers, and gives them an incentive to sign up for unlimited Vision.
    >>
    >> 4 - They're tracking this usage in order to develop a profitable business
    >> model for charging for such usage, which they'll eventually roll out.
    >>
    >> 5 - Some other reason?

    >
    >
    > Probably more like:
    >
    > 6 - There's no definitive mechanism to determine whether someone is
    > really connecting a laptop or just really into using Vision services. So,
    > they go after the users that anyone would clearly know could not possibly
    > have transferred 600, 700, 800 megabytes, 2 gigs - by just browsing away
    > on their vision phones.
    >
    >
    > --
    > E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    > Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.



    I still find it hard to believe that Sprint can't tell whether Vision access
    originated from a phone or from a device connected to the phone via a cable.
    Surely the connections are originated differently, and data packets contain
    enough information to identify which is which. E.g., the phone's likely to
    have packets that identifies it as using J2ME or WAP while a laptop
    connection's likely to have packets that identifies it as using J2SE or
    ActiveX/COM.

    As to whether Sprint bothers to look at the data to this level of detail,
    I'm not so sure.

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen
    >






  7. #7
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    "Steph" <[email protected]_CUT> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Kovie" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]_s53:
    >
    >> I'm wondering why Sprint "allows" people with unlimited Vision to
    >> access the internet via a laptop and cable, even though it's forbidden
    >> under the TOS, so long as you don't abuse this (which at present seems
    >> to be no more than 300-500MB/month).

    >
    > I get charged no matter what.
    > I have only used the tethered access sparingly when connected, and only
    > maybe 7-10 days total out of a year.
    >


    >
    > Improperly managing expectations is just a recipe for disaster. I have
    > unlimited Vision (and it appears my account was modified somehow back
    > when they did a warranty replacement on the handset), yet get charged
    > for virtually any internet access. I don't even use the vision on the
    > handset hardly now.
    >



    Isn't this a billing error rather than Sprint policy, as others have noted,
    especially if you're being charged for phone Vision access on your unlimited
    Vision plan?

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





  8. #8
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Kovie wrote:
    > enough information to identify which is which. E.g., the phone's likely to
    > have packets that identifies it as using J2ME or WAP while a laptop
    > connection's likely to have packets that identifies it as using J2SE or
    > ActiveX/COM.


    Not possible. As far as web browsing is concerned, HTTP is HTTP, and the choice
    of technology (Java, ActiveX/ASP, whatever) is made on the SERVER. Not the client.

    > As to whether Sprint bothers to look at the data to this level of detail,
    > I'm not so sure.


    It doesn't exist.



    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  9. #9
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Kovie wrote:
    > Isn't this a billing error rather than Sprint policy, as others have noted,
    > especially if you're being charged for phone Vision access on your unlimited
    > Vision plan?

    Old, slow Wireless Web access is not included in the Vision plans.

    However, if you're using a Vision phone, Vision should be used automatically to
    browse the web.

    I'd suggest to the person having problems that they speak to Sprint tech
    support; something does smell fishy here.



    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  10. #10
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Kovie wrote:
    >> enough information to identify which is which. E.g., the phone's likely
    >> to have packets that identifies it as using J2ME or WAP while a laptop
    >> connection's likely to have packets that identifies it as using J2SE or
    >> ActiveX/COM.

    >
    > Not possible. As far as web browsing is concerned, HTTP is HTTP, and the
    > choice of technology (Java, ActiveX/ASP, whatever) is made on the SERVER.
    > Not the client.
    >
    >> As to whether Sprint bothers to look at the data to this level of detail,
    >> I'm not so sure.

    >
    > It doesn't exist.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    > Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    > [email protected]
    > PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    > Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.


    I see. I'm no expert on this, but it just doesn't make sense that there's NO
    way to tell the difference between phone and non-phone Vision access.
    Wouldn't non-phone browsers such as IE make HTTP calls that a phone-based
    one never would, at least at the current level of phone-based browser
    technology? E.g. for streaming video or audio content, or for images too
    large for any existing phone-based browser to handle? My point is that
    perhaps there's nothing in an HTTP call that explicitely says "Hey, I'm
    Internet Explorer!", but surely there's some fairly obvious indirect way of
    telling what the source is?

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





  11. #11
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Kovie wrote:
    > > Isn't this a billing error rather than Sprint policy, as others have

    > noted,
    >> especially if you're being charged for phone Vision access on your
    >> unlimited Vision plan?

    > Old, slow Wireless Web access is not included in the Vision plans.
    >
    > However, if you're using a Vision phone, Vision should be used
    > automatically to browse the web.
    >
    > I'd suggest to the person having problems that they speak to Sprint tech
    > support; something does smell fishy here.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    > Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    > [email protected]
    > PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    > Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.


    I might have read somewhere that this sometimes happens when someone has
    unlimited Vision but for some reason has chosen to keep their old WW
    service. Not sure if this is the issue here.

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





  12. #12
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Kovie wrote:

    > I might have read somewhere that this sometimes happens when someone has
    > unlimited Vision but for some reason has chosen to keep their old WW
    > service. Not sure if this is the issue here.


    If this is the case, perhaps closing out WW would help - it's not necessary to
    have it, since Vision includes web browsing.



    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  13. #13
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    Kovie wrote:

    > I see. I'm no expert on this, but it just doesn't make sense that there's NO
    > way to tell the difference between phone and non-phone Vision access.
    > Wouldn't non-phone browsers such as IE make HTTP calls that a phone-based
    > one never would,


    The Vision browsers use WAP 2.0 and can accept XHTML output as well as some
    other content. I guess you could check the Accept header and see if the browser
    accepts WAP, but I don't think that's necessarily reliable. I have a WAP
    simulator on my computer because I've created sites built for cell phones
    before, and that simulator will send the same Accept header that a phone would.

    > perhaps there's nothing in an HTTP call that explicitely says "Hey, I'm
    > Internet Explorer!", but surely there's some fairly obvious indirect way of
    > telling what the source is?


    Sorta - as I mentioned, it's not really reliable.

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) / [email protected]
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.



  14. #14
    Kovie
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?

    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Kovie wrote:
    >
    >> I see. I'm no expert on this, but it just doesn't make sense that there's
    >> NO way to tell the difference between phone and non-phone Vision access.
    >> Wouldn't non-phone browsers such as IE make HTTP calls that a phone-based
    >> one never would,

    >
    > The Vision browsers use WAP 2.0 and can accept XHTML output as well as
    > some other content. I guess you could check the Accept header and see if
    > the browser accepts WAP, but I don't think that's necessarily reliable. I
    > have a WAP simulator on my computer because I've created sites built for
    > cell phones before, and that simulator will send the same Accept header
    > that a phone would.
    >
    >> perhaps there's nothing in an HTTP call that explicitely says "Hey, I'm
    >> Internet Explorer!", but surely there's some fairly obvious indirect way
    >> of telling what the source is?

    >
    > Sorta - as I mentioned, it's not really reliable.
    >
    > --
    > JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    > Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    > [email protected]
    > PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    > Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.


    Got it. Being the incurable skeptic and tinkerer that I am, I'm not
    completely convinced that there's no reliable way of knowing what the source
    device is (hey, we're all entitled to our innocent delusions...). But also
    not being an expert on this, I'll have to take your word on it.

    --
    Kovie
    [email protected]zen





  15. #15
    Bob Smith
    Guest

    Re: Why does Sprint "allow" limited laptop Vision access?


    "Kovie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]_s02...
    > "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Kovie wrote:
    > >
    > >> I see. I'm no expert on this, but it just doesn't make sense that

    there's
    > >> NO way to tell the difference between phone and non-phone Vision

    access.
    > >> Wouldn't non-phone browsers such as IE make HTTP calls that a

    phone-based
    > >> one never would,

    > >
    > > The Vision browsers use WAP 2.0 and can accept XHTML output as well as
    > > some other content. I guess you could check the Accept header and see if
    > > the browser accepts WAP, but I don't think that's necessarily reliable.

    I
    > > have a WAP simulator on my computer because I've created sites built for
    > > cell phones before, and that simulator will send the same Accept header
    > > that a phone would.
    > >
    > >> perhaps there's nothing in an HTTP call that explicitely says "Hey, I'm
    > >> Internet Explorer!", but surely there's some fairly obvious indirect

    way
    > >> of telling what the source is?

    > >
    > > Sorta - as I mentioned, it's not really reliable.
    > >
    > > --
    > > JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    > > Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    > > [email protected]
    > > PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    > > Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three

    kids.
    >
    > Got it. Being the incurable skeptic and tinkerer that I am, I'm not
    > completely convinced that there's no reliable way of knowing what the

    source
    > device is (hey, we're all entitled to our innocent delusions...). But also
    > not being an expert on this, I'll have to take your word on it.
    >
    > --
    > Kovie
    > [email protected]zen


    Before Rob left, he mentioned that SPCS does know how to determine when data
    was through the phone or a laptop.

    Bob





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