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  1. #1
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest
    Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at
    extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    The original America's Choice calling plan from Verizon was a great plan. It
    included a lot of off-network roaming, at no extra charge, in areas where
    Verizon did not have a network. Where Verizon didn't have a roaming
    agreement, your phone could still be used, but at extra cost.

    Verizon has been worsening America's Choice almost from its inception. They
    began by abandoning roaming agreements, so that there was a lot less
    included roaming, and a lot more extra-cost roaming. When this was disclosed
    by people who were analyzing their PRLs (preferred roaming lists), they
    forced these people to take this information off the web.

    Now they have changed the plan again, and new subscribers will have no
    roaming at all, even at an extra charge. This means that you can only use
    the phone in areas where Verizon has service (except for 911 calls). If
    you're out of Verizon's coverage area, your phone is a paperweight except
    for 911 access.

    Driving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Yosemite? Your phone will stop
    working completely on the outskirts of Oakdale, where Golden State Cellular
    is the carrier, and you'll have no coverage inside the park. Driving up the
    California Coast to Mendocino? No coverage. Alaska? No coverage. The list
    goes on and on.

    To complete the service reduction, Verizon no longer offers the National
    Single Rate plan. According to their sales people, they have NO plans that
    offer off-network roaming (though their web site states that their Digital
    Choice plan (local plan), and their InPulse prepaid plan, allow roaming at
    69 per minute).

    Verizon's web site is intentionally misleading. It states, for America's
    Choice, "Domestic Roaming (No roaming charges) (Coverage not available in
    all areas)," without stating that what they really mean is that you cannot
    actually roam onto any other carrier's network.

    Previous America's Choice subscribers will still be able to roam off
    Verizon, though there will be less and less included roaming, as Verizon
    abandons roaming agreements.





    See More: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.




  2. #2
    Quick
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    So what's your point?

    Was this a public service for those who can't read?

    -Quick

    Steven M. Scharf wrote:
    > Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more
    > roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate
    > Plan.
    >
    > The original America's Choice calling plan from Verizon
    > was a great plan. It included a lot of off-network
    > roaming, at no extra charge, in areas where Verizon did
    > not have a network. Where Verizon didn't have a roaming
    > agreement, your phone could still be used, but at extra
    > cost.
    >
    > Verizon has been worsening America's Choice almost from
    > its inception. They began by abandoning roaming
    > agreements, so that there was a lot less included
    > roaming, and a lot more extra-cost roaming. When this was
    > disclosed by people who were analyzing their PRLs
    > (preferred roaming lists), they forced these people to
    > take this information off the web.
    >
    > Now they have changed the plan again, and new subscribers
    > will have no roaming at all, even at an extra charge.
    > This means that you can only use the phone in areas where
    > Verizon has service (except for 911 calls). If you're out
    > of Verizon's coverage area, your phone is a paperweight
    > except for 911 access.
    >
    > Driving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Yosemite? Your
    > phone will stop working completely on the outskirts of
    > Oakdale, where Golden State Cellular is the carrier, and
    > you'll have no coverage inside the park. Driving up the
    > California Coast to Mendocino? No coverage. Alaska? No
    > coverage. The list goes on and on.
    >
    > To complete the service reduction, Verizon no longer
    > offers the National Single Rate plan. According to their
    > sales people, they have NO plans that offer off-network
    > roaming (though their web site states that their Digital
    > Choice plan (local plan), and their InPulse prepaid plan,
    > allow roaming at 69 per minute).
    >
    > Verizon's web site is intentionally misleading. It
    > states, for America's Choice, "Domestic Roaming (No
    > roaming charges) (Coverage not available in all areas),"
    > without stating that what they really mean is that you
    > cannot actually roam onto any other carrier's network.
    >
    > Previous America's Choice subscribers will still be able
    > to roam off Verizon, though there will be less and less
    > included roaming, as Verizon abandons roaming agreements.






  3. #3
    Bob Smith
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.


    "Quick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > So what's your point?
    >
    > Was this a public service for those who can't read?
    >
    > -Quick


    If you noticed, the OP was crossposted for all the cellular newsgroups in
    the galaxy, and a few other newsgroups as well. It was news to yours truly,
    and I'm sure quite a few others, who don't participate on the Verizon
    newsgroup.

    Bob





  4. #4
    Jim Seymour
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Bob Smith" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > "Quick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> So what's your point?
    >>
    >> Was this a public service for those who can't read?
    >>

    [snip]
    > It was news to yours truly,
    > and I'm sure quite a few others, who don't participate on the Verizon
    > newsgroup.


    It was timely, for me, being as I'm on the verge of choosing a new
    plan and phones. I'll *probably* stick with SPCS, but VZ would
    probably be my 2nd choice. Or would have been.

    I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their coverage?

    --
    Jim Seymour | "There is no expedient to which a man will not
    [email protected] | go to avoid the labor of thinking."
    http://jimsun.LinxNet.com | - Thomas A. Edison



  5. #5
    Jerome Zelinske
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming,even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    verizon's coverage did not shrink, only some of it's free roaming and
    all of it's non-free roaming shrank.



  6. #6

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.


    Jim Seymour wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Bob Smith" <[email protected]> writes:
    > >
    > > "Quick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >> So what's your point?
    > >>
    > >> Was this a public service for those who can't read?
    > >>

    > [snip]
    > > It was news to yours truly,
    > > and I'm sure quite a few others, who don't participate on the Verizon
    > > newsgroup.

    >
    > It was timely, for me, being as I'm on the verge of choosing a new
    > plan and phones. I'll *probably* stick with SPCS, but VZ would
    > probably be my 2nd choice. Or would have been.
    >
    > I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their coverage?

    [snip]

    The accuracy of this post is in question, and I might consider
    looking
    at the plans in detail yourself, especially if there is a specific
    region of interest. I switched from "more bars" ATT/Cingular to
    Verizon and have had no problems in my areas of travel.




  7. #7
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    "Jim Seymour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their coverage?


    According to the Verizon CSR, they were having a problem with complaints
    about roaming charges. This stemmed from two issues.

    First, many people do not understand what the roaming indicators on their
    phone means. The little flashing or non-flashing triangle, or the solid or
    flashing :"Extended Network" message (complicating this is the fact that the
    flashing versus non-flashing is counter-intuitive, flashing should be used
    when you are being charged roaming, and solid should be used when you are on
    the Extended Network, but it's the opposite way around).

    Second, many people never update their PRL. As Verizon has reduced its
    extended network coverage, the phone will still indicate that you are not
    roaming, if you have an old PRL that included the area you're in as part of
    the extended network.

    So the solution to eliminating complaints about roaming charges is obviously
    to eliminate all roaming. Not having your phone work at all is obviously
    better than paying for roaming!

    The non-roaming AC does have a larger extended network than the old roaming
    AC, but there are still areas where the choice is roaming or no service.

    The solution is to carry a second phone from a prepaid provider, that allows
    roaming, when traveling. An old TDMA/AMPS phone on Beyond Wireless
    (http://gobeyondwireless.com) will work, and has no minimums, and no
    expiration (other than making one call every 60 days).





  8. #8
    Quick
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    o[email protected] wrote:
    > Jim Seymour wrote:
    >> In article
    >> <[email protected]>,
    >> "Bob Smith" <[email protected]> writes:
    >>>
    >>> "Quick" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>> message news:[email protected]
    >>>> So what's your point?
    >>>>
    >>>> Was this a public service for those who can't read?
    >>>>

    >> [snip]
    >>> It was
    >>> news to yours truly, and I'm sure quite a few others,
    >>> who don't participate on the Verizon newsgroup.

    >>
    >> It was timely, for me, being as I'm on the verge of
    >> choosing a new plan and phones. I'll *probably* stick
    >> with SPCS, but VZ would probably be my 2nd choice. Or
    >> would have been.
    >>
    >> I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their
    >> coverage?

    > [snip]
    >
    > The accuracy of this post is in question, and I might
    > consider looking at the plans in detail yourself, especially
    > if there is a specific region of interest. I switched from
    > "more bars" ATT/Cingular to Verizon and have had no
    > problems in my areas of travel.


    Actually it was mostly misinformation (and 4 months after
    the fact). If interested you should read Bill Radio's detailed
    correction posted here on alt.cellular.verizon. (I guess if you
    don't have an agenda you don't make a point to cross post
    the known universe).

    -Quick







  9. #9
    Go Fig
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Jim Seymour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > > I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their coverage?

    >
    > According to the Verizon CSR, they were having a problem with complaints
    > about roaming charges. This stemmed from two issues.
    >
    > First, many people do not understand what the roaming indicators on their
    > phone means. The little flashing or non-flashing triangle, or the solid or
    > flashing :"Extended Network" message (complicating this is the fact that the
    > flashing versus non-flashing is counter-intuitive, flashing should be used
    > when you are being charged roaming, and solid should be used when you are on
    > the Extended Network, but it's the opposite way around).


    Exactly! This happened to me last year on the Miss. River... The
    regular 'help' gave me the wrong info, only after bring it up, by
    chance, with a 'data' specialist did she correctly inform me about the
    solid triangle. She offer to credit back all roaming charges and would
    call me in 45 days to make sure it was done... she did call me, which
    was impressive service.

    I'd love to switch to a GSM based service, but in my home area VZ is
    really very good coverage... my biggest grip is with their position on
    'bluetooth', they will not make it fully functional... so you hopefully
    will use "Get it Now"... there is a Class Action suit for this... great
    another 30% off coupon at goods I don't want and are 150% overvalued.

    jay
    Wed May 25, 2005
    mailto:[email protected]


    >
    > Second, many people never update their PRL. As Verizon has reduced its
    > extended network coverage, the phone will still indicate that you are not
    > roaming, if you have an old PRL that included the area you're in as part of
    > the extended network.
    >
    > So the solution to eliminating complaints about roaming charges is obviously
    > to eliminate all roaming. Not having your phone work at all is obviously
    > better than paying for roaming!
    >
    > The non-roaming AC does have a larger extended network than the old roaming
    > AC, but there are still areas where the choice is roaming or no service.
    >
    > The solution is to carry a second phone from a prepaid provider, that allows
    > roaming, when traveling. An old TDMA/AMPS phone on Beyond Wireless
    > (http://gobeyondwireless.com) will work, and has no minimums, and no
    > expiration (other than making one call every 60 days).
    >
    >




  10. #10
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.


    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > The accuracy of this post is in question,


    You are certainly welcome to call Verizon and check the accuracy. I called
    them three times, just to be sure I got the same answer each time.

    > and I might consider looking
    > at the plans in detail yourself, especially if there is a specific
    > region of interest. I switched from "more bars" ATT/Cingular to
    > Verizon and have had no problems in my areas of travel.


    In most areas of travel you will have no problem. But if you ever go off the
    beaten path, you most certainly will encounter "No Service" where in fact
    service does exist. This can be dealt with by carrying a second, prepaid
    phone, that does allow roaming.

    You are also correct that Verizon has "more bars" in most areas. Only in
    areas where Verizon was not the A or B carrier, and is 1900 Mhz-only, is
    their coverage markedly worse than Cingular.





  11. #11
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    "Go Fig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:250520050921353634%[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "Jim Seymour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > > > I wonder what VZ hopes to gain by shrinking their coverage?

    > >
    > > According to the Verizon CSR, they were having a problem with complaints
    > > about roaming charges. This stemmed from two issues.
    > >
    > > First, many people do not understand what the roaming indicators on

    their
    > > phone means. The little flashing or non-flashing triangle, or the solid

    or
    > > flashing :"Extended Network" message (complicating this is the fact that

    the
    > > flashing versus non-flashing is counter-intuitive, flashing should be

    used
    > > when you are being charged roaming, and solid should be used when you

    are on
    > > the Extended Network, but it's the opposite way around).

    >
    > Exactly! This happened to me last year on the Miss. River... The
    > regular 'help' gave me the wrong info, only after bring it up, by
    > chance, with a 'data' specialist did she correctly inform me about the
    > solid triangle.


    When I was in Alaska, I couldn't convince my sister-in-law that the flashing
    meant that she was on the extended network. She called customer service, and
    they gave her the wrong answer, telling her that Verizon had no service in
    Alaska (and adding that Alaska is our 50th state!). I told her to call back
    and ask again, since with Verizon, you really should go for two out of
    three, or three out of five, to have a good chance of getting the correct
    information.





  12. #12
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming,even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    Steven M. Scharf wrote:

    > So the solution to eliminating complaints about roaming charges is obviously
    > to eliminate all roaming. Not having your phone work at all is obviously
    > better than paying for roaming!


    Yeahbut they also got rid of National Single-Rate, where you wouldn't
    HAVE roaming complaints because you always roam without roaming charges
    in the US.

    Is North America's Choice still available?

    --
    JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [email protected] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

    "The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
    --New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"



  13. #13
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.


    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Steven M. Scharf wrote:
    >
    > > So the solution to eliminating complaints about roaming charges is

    obviously
    > > to eliminate all roaming. Not having your phone work at all is obviously
    > > better than paying for roaming!

    >
    > Yeahbut they also got rid of National Single-Rate, where you wouldn't
    > HAVE roaming complaints because you always roam without roaming charges
    > in the US.


    I think that the only people signing up for NSR were people that were doing
    a great deal of off-network roaming, otherwise it would have been cheaper to
    use AC and pay for occasional roaming. So Verizon was probably losing money
    on NSR from too many customers to keep offering it.





  14. #14
    Joseph Huber
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    On Thu, 26 May 2005 00:48:44 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
    >"Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> Yeahbut they also got rid of National Single-Rate, where you wouldn't
    >> HAVE roaming complaints because you always roam without roaming charges
    >> in the US.

    >
    >I think that the only people signing up for NSR were people that were doing
    >a great deal of off-network roaming, otherwise it would have been cheaper to
    >use AC and pay for occasional roaming. So Verizon was probably losing money
    >on NSR from too many customers to keep offering it.


    My mother lived in a rural area, and had NSR. NSR is/was practically
    a must for people in those areas, where the towers are few and far
    between. You can be on a Verizon tower, drive 100 ft down the road,
    and be on some other company's tower incurring roaming charges.

    Great NSR story about my small rural hometown... I bought my mother a
    Verizon cell phone with NSR. At that time, everything was analog (and
    probably still is). NSR was not cheap, but she could afford it, and I
    wanted to make things simple for her (i.e. not having to worry about
    roaming). Lots of folks bought Verizion phones in that area, as the
    other option was a regional provider with rather poor plans. The
    nearest Verizon tower was about 20 air miles away. Reception was not
    great, but usable most of the time (an external antenna helped
    immensely). As I recall, one band (A or B, I'm not sure) picked up
    the distant Verizon tower most of the time, but sometimes picked up a
    non-Verizon tower. the other band picked up a tower from another cell
    provider. I was sure glad we chose NSR! Surprisingly, many people
    did not buy the NSR plan.

    Some small company came in and built a cell tower a few miles outside
    of town. The town was thrilled, as this closer tower would allow the
    folks to ditch their antennas and bag phones. Then, the new tower was
    turned on. I don't know the technical details, but somehow the
    Verizon phones always connected to the new tower, and would no longer
    pick up the distant Verizon tower. But this tower company did not
    feel compelled to enter a roaming agreement with Verizion. So the
    Verizon users who didn't have NSR started incurring roaming charges
    for every call (both bands were roaming towers). The issue dragged
    on for months, and it may still may not be resolved. There were
    hearings and town meetings, but apparently no agency had the authority
    to compell Verizon and this tower company to make an agreement. My
    mother has since passed on, and my sister still has the phone with
    NSR, but lives in a larger town that has better Verizion coverage.
    She still benefits from NSR when she travels out away from town.

    Joe Huber
    [email protected]



  15. #15
    617 Phones
    Guest

    Re: Verizon Worsens America's Choice Calling Plan--No more roaming, even at extra cost, No more National Single Rate Plan.

    *******"The original America's Choice calling plan from Verizon was a
    great plan. It included a lot of off-network roaming, at no extra
    charge in areas where Verizon did not have a network."*******

    Exactly what was the catastrophic change here? Nothing. There are a few
    carriers that have been dropped and some added. The major removal was
    SprintPCS in many areas. However, these areas are generally covered by
    Verizon native, Alltel, or another partner. The main reason for
    Sprint's inclusion was generally network capacity, an area where
    Verizon now does very well.

    *******"Where Verizon didn't have a roaming agreement, your phone
    could still be used, but at extra cost."*******

    This is true in most cases, but not all. There were some providers that
    you could not roam on, even at 69 cents a minute. It is true that there
    are now more areas where potential roaming is not available than
    before.

    *******"Verizon has been worsening America's Choice almost from its
    inception. They began by abandoning roaming agreements, so that there
    was a lot less included roaming, and a lot more extra-cost roaming.
    When this was disclosed by people who were analyzing their PRLs
    (preferred roaming lists), they forced these people to take this
    information off the web."*******

    There has been, in reality, very little degradation in coverage since
    the advent of AC. In fact, a much larger geographic area was included
    in AC, even before the additions introduced for AC2. Have some small
    areas been dropped. Absolutely. And for those who travel those areas
    regularly, that's unfortunate. But much more territory has been
    added. And yes, there has been quite a bit of discussion regarding
    Verizon's reputed heavy handed ways to stop discussion of the PRLs on
    the web. To whatever extent individuals were intimidated for sharing
    information regarding coverage, that was truly appalling.

    *******"Now they have changed the plan again, and new subscribers
    will have no roaming at all, even at an extra charge. This means that
    you can only use the phone in areas where Verizon has service (except
    for 911 calls). If you're out of Verizon's coverage area, your phone is
    a paperweight except for 911 access."*******

    No roaming? Of course, that's just not true. Much of Verizon's
    coverage on AC is provided by Alltel, US Cellular, SprintPCS and many
    other providers. There's just no extra charge for that
    roaming-it's included. (In fact the OP makes that point himself in
    a later post.)

    *******"Driving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Yosemite? Your
    phone will stop working completely on the outskirts of Oakdale, where
    Golden State Cellular is the carrier, and you'll have no coverage
    inside the park. Driving up the California Coast to Mendocino? No
    coverage. Alaska? No coverage. The list goes on and on."*******

    This one is really out there, at least in regards to the Yosemite trip.
    Golden State Cellular, the regional carrier, inside and around
    Yosemite, is on every Verizon PRL. It's been included for years. Over
    the past few years I've spent several frustrating afternoons on the
    phone in Upper Pines campground. Frustrating only because the excellent
    service I received on my Verizon phone from Golden State Cellular
    "allowed" me to do business when I really should have been
    relaxing!

    *******"To complete the service reduction, Verizon no longer offers
    the National Single Rate plan. According to their sales people, they
    have NO plans that offer off-network roaming (though their web site
    states that their Digital Choice plan (local plan), and their InPulse
    prepaid plan, allow roaming at 69 per minute)."*******

    Actually, at this time, VZW still offers the National Access calling
    plan at the same exact cost and coverage as Single Rate. It just adds
    the ability to use the minutes for data in addition to voice. There are
    rumors that National Access plans may disappear, but they haven't
    yet.

    *******"Verizon's web site is intentionally misleading. It states,
    for America's Choice, "Domestic Roaming (No roaming charges) (Coverage
    not available in all areas)," without stating that what they really
    mean is that you cannot actually roam onto any other carrier's
    network."*******

    Excuse me? How is it misleading to print a coverage map that shows
    unavailable areas that are clearly marked as such? Does "Coverage Not
    Available" mean nothing to you? We may not like it, but it's about
    as clear as you can get. And, quite obviously, the assertion that "you
    cannot actually roam onto any other carrier's network" is patently
    absurd.

    *******"Previous America's Choice subscribers will still be able to
    roam off Verizon, though there will be less and less included roaming,
    as Verizon abandons roaming agreements."*******

    Could you give us your sources for the planned abandonment of roaming
    agreements?

    Verizon, like every other carrier, is not perfect for anyone, is
    excellent for many, acceptable for some, lousy for others and useless
    to a few. Due to my traveling, I carry VZW SRN and AC1, Cingular (Blue
    TDMA One Rate) and SprintPCS Free and Clear America. Each has enough
    advantages for me to keep them. But, AC2 is a terrific plan for a lot
    of users.

    Groundless accusations against a carrier are as useless as undisguised
    cheerleading.




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