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  1. #16
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on 12 May 2006
    08:34:26 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >I called Cingular this morning and they claim that they are not
    >participating.


    That may have been in reference to the earlier uproar:

    "Some companies helped the NSA, but which?"

    <http://news.com.com/Some+companies+helped+the+NSA,+but+which/2100-1028_3-6035305.html>

    The News.com survey, started Jan. 25, found that wireless providers
    and cable companies were the most likely to distance themselves from
    the NSA. Cingular Wireless, Comcast, Cox Communications, Sprint
    Nextel and T-Mobile said they had not turned over information or
    opened their networks to the NSA without being required by law.

    Companies that are backbone providers, or which operate undersea
    cables spanning the ocean, were among the least likely to respond.
    AT&T, Cable & Wireless, Global Crossing, Level 3, NTT Communications,
    SAVVIS Communications and Verizon Communications chose not to answer
    the questions posed to them.

    In this case there appears to be no such clear cut assurance:

    "NSA report renews data mining concerns"
    <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12745304/>

    It remains unclear whether other communications providers have been
    asked for their call logs or billing records.

    Verizon Wireless spokesman Jeffrey Nelson definitively said his
    company was "not involved in this situation." His counterparts at
    Cingular -- an AT&T/BellSouth joint venture -- and Sprint Nextel Corp.
    were less explicit and did not deny any participation.

    In a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press Thursday, T-Mobile
    USA Inc. said it does not participate "in any NSA program for
    warrant-less surveillance and acquisition of call records, and
    T-Mobile has not provided any such access to communications or
    customer records."

    Even without cell phone carriers’ help, of course, calls between
    wireless subscribers and Verizon, AT&T and BellSouth landlines
    presumably would be captured.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



    See More: Cingular call details and the NSA?




  2. #17
    Isaiah Beard
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    John Navas wrote:

    >
    > Perhaps, but not necessarily -- while at&t and BellSouth are the parents of
    > Cingular, they don't directly "run" it


    Enron didn't directly "run" LJM I and II, either. Yet they were
    instrumental in the same activities. It's all semantics, really.

    Regardless, even if Cingular was waxing angelic, they still had to
    contract SOMEONE for backhaul. I doubt they would have favored Sprint
    or Qwest when AT&T/BellSouth had facilities readily at hand.



    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.



  3. #18
    Isaiah Beard
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    John Navas wrote:

    > Even without cell phone carriers’ help, of course, calls between
    > wireless subscribers and Verizon, AT&T and BellSouth landlines
    > presumably would be captured.


    Exactly my point. Once you have two or three of the largest regional
    and national telecom companies turning over records voluntarily, whether
    or not the smaller players want to take part starts to become moot. A
    good portion of their traffic will be captured and logged anyway.

    Sigman and Seidenberg's denials are a great PR move, an ingenious piece
    of spin. Of course they didn't directly participate in this program:
    they didn't really HAVE to, because their parent companies - who also
    happen to be their preferred backhaul vendors - were doing the deed for
    them.



    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.



  4. #19
    Mike Levy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 18:19:18 GMT, John Navas
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
    >
    >In <[email protected]> on Thu, 11 May 2006
    >10:16:54 -0700, Joshua Putnam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Looking at today's revelations about craven phone company executives
    >>going along with NSA snooping on phone records, I will admit to
    >>having found one good thing to say about Qwest, which refused to
    >>violate privacy laws for the NSA's convenience unless the NSA could
    >>provide either FISA court authorization or a letter from the U.S.
    >>Attorney General authorizing the program. (NSA refused to document
    >>the legal basis for their program, they say, because they didn't
    >>expect they'd *get* approval from FISA or the Attorney General. But
    >>they demand cooperation anyway.)
    >>
    >>So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    >>company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.
    >>
    >>Coverage of this story is different in different places, so far I
    >>haven't seen any mention of which cell phone companies have
    >>capitulated to the NSA and which are operating within the laws and
    >>Constitution.
    >>
    >>Has anyone seen a listing of which cell phone companies, if any, are
    >>ethical enough to resist the NSA's effort to track every phone call
    >>in the country?

    >
    >AT&T and BellSouth been cooperating with the NSA for some time, so it's a good
    >bet that Cingular has or will do that also. Likewise Verizon. See
    >"NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls"
    ><http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA>
    >No mention is made of any other carriers.



    Verizon Communications only owns 55% of Verizon Wireless. The
    corporations are distinct and have their own CEOs. As such, saying
    Verizon (or Verizon Communications) has done this does NOT imply
    Verizon Wireless has as well. The other 45% is owned by Vodafone.
    VZW is a privately-owned company, it's not publicly traded like
    Verizon (or Verizon Communications).



  5. #20
    DecaturTxCowboy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/12/wa...rtner=homepage

    "We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of
    innocent Americans," Mr. Bush said before leaving for a commencement
    address in Mississippi.

    The USA Today article on Thursday went further, saying that the N.S.A.
    had created an enormous database of all calls made by customers of the
    three phone companies in an effort to compile a log of "every call ever
    made" within this country.

    Take your pick....


    Reminds me of a picture of a '50s style housewife with her hands to her
    face exclaiming, "The ***** said WHAT???"



  6. #21
    RNess
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    An important note:

    Backhaul is totally different than calls and call records.
    Backhaul are simply data circuits. T1s, DS3s OCX, etc, etc.
    Just dumb pipes connecting point A and point B. There isn't
    really any way, short of actual sniffing, to peek at actual traffic.

    It is CALL records that is being discussed here. Not the traffic
    on the pipes themselves.

    The data mining of a call record DATABASE.

    Apples and bowling balls....


    "Isaiah Beard" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > Most wireless companies must contract with an LEC in the area for backhaul to their cell sites, meaning calls could
    > have been carried on those networks and thus logged.






  7. #22
    Jer
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    Isaiah Beard wrote:
    > John Navas wrote:
    >
    >> Even without cell phone carriers’ help, of course, calls between
    >> wireless subscribers and Verizon, AT&T and BellSouth landlines
    >> presumably would be captured.

    >
    >
    > Exactly my point. Once you have two or three of the largest regional
    > and national telecom companies turning over records voluntarily, whether
    > or not the smaller players want to take part starts to become moot. A
    > good portion of their traffic will be captured and logged anyway.
    >
    > Sigman and Seidenberg's denials are a great PR move, an ingenious piece
    > of spin. Of course they didn't directly participate in this program:
    > they didn't really HAVE to, because their parent companies - who also
    > happen to be their preferred backhaul vendors - were doing the deed for
    > them.
    >
    >
    >



    at&t is 60% owner of Cingular, and these two companies are separate
    operating entities without operational shares at all levels of
    management. Despite the recent comments about NSA not needing a warrant
    to obtain call activity records, Cingular has always considered even
    this meager access level to require a Title 1 warrant in other (prior)
    situations. However, as you said, given the capture scope of other
    "program" participants, Cingular's denial may be effectively smallish in
    the overall scheme.

    --
    jer
    email reply - I am not a 'ten'




  8. #23
    Jer
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    RNess wrote:
    > An important note:
    >
    > Backhaul is totally different than calls and call records.
    > Backhaul are simply data circuits. T1s, DS3s OCX, etc, etc.
    > Just dumb pipes connecting point A and point B. There isn't
    > really any way, short of actual sniffing, to peek at actual traffic.
    >
    > It is CALL records that is being discussed here. Not the traffic
    > on the pipes themselves.
    >
    > The data mining of a call record DATABASE.
    >
    > Apples and bowling balls....




    An absolutely true and spot on comment.

    --
    jer
    email reply - I am not a 'ten'



  9. #24

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    >I have nothing to hide in my own phone traffic, so I'm not
    >particularly bothered that other companies may have illegally

    If I worked for a car company, say, I'd jump at the chance to give a
    phone company a list of phone numbers of recent buyers, and get back a
    list of all the phone numbers they've talked to since, so I could give my
    dealers some good prospects. If I worked at the White House I sure
    would like to give them a list of everyone who called praising something
    and get back a list of all the contacts of such folks, for followup.
    Or in reverse, given a highly-connected-group of phone numbers of people
    who I did not know much about, it would be very nice to find contacts
    I did have data on who could give me entre into the group. It's a
    whole new source of a whole new kind of information. #.#



  10. #25
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Fri, 12 May 2006 19:04:20 -0500,
    Jer <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Isaiah Beard wrote:


    >> Sigman and Seidenberg's denials are a great PR move, an ingenious piece
    >> of spin. Of course they didn't directly participate in this program:
    >> they didn't really HAVE to, because their parent companies - who also
    >> happen to be their preferred backhaul vendors - were doing the deed for
    >> them.

    >
    >at&t is 60% owner of Cingular, and these two companies are separate
    >operating entities without operational shares at all levels of
    >management. Despite the recent comments about NSA not needing a warrant
    >to obtain call activity records, Cingular has always considered even
    >this meager access level to require a Title 1 warrant in other (prior)
    >situations. However, as you said, given the capture scope of other
    >"program" participants, Cingular's denial may be effectively smallish in
    >the overall scheme.


    Cingular hasn't issued an actual denial:

    "NSA report renews data mining concerns"
    <http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12745304/>

    Verizon Wireless spokesman Jeffrey Nelson definitively said his
    company was "not involved in this situation." His counterparts at
    Cingular -- an AT&T/BellSouth joint venture -- and Sprint Nextel Corp.
    were less explicit and did not deny any participation.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  11. #26
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:17 -0500,
    Jer <[email protected]> wrote:

    >RNess wrote:
    >> An important note:
    >>
    >> Backhaul is totally different than calls and call records.
    >> Backhaul are simply data circuits. T1s, DS3s OCX, etc, etc.
    >> Just dumb pipes connecting point A and point B. There isn't
    >> really any way, short of actual sniffing, to peek at actual traffic.
    >>
    >> It is CALL records that is being discussed here. Not the traffic
    >> on the pipes themselves.
    >>
    >> The data mining of a call record DATABASE.
    >>
    >> Apples and bowling balls....

    >
    >An absolutely true and spot on comment.


    So they say. You believe them ... why?

    In any event, call information can of course be mined by backhaul providers.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  12. #27
    Brant Bassett
    Guest

    HOMELAND IMPURITY: Cingular telecom & NSA?

    McKinsey Group Consultants [OUTSOURCING and Weapons Dealers maniacs]
    will sell you down the river much quicker than the lethal intentions of
    NSA "nocs" [non official covert spies]. Both institutions are total
    losers with no moral compass in the societal and humanity realm, but we
    are losers if we let them continue, outsourcing our jobs and lives away
    and domestic spying on us and prying without any civil protections
    until even a veteran must fear for his life from The Man when he/she
    returns home to their family with no arms or legs and facing bankruptcy
    court and eviction!
    http://autoassembly.mckinsey.com/html/home/home.asp

    Did you see the tragic photos this week of the laid off and terminated
    Whirlpool and Maytag employees? This is the result of global slush
    fund fraudulent pilfering from our Treasury to provide monies to
    outsourcers worldwide, via FEMA and Homeland Security and the Pentagon,
    and this ongoing and onslaught of regimentation of work and labor into
    global temp agency units, and the over a decade long CONSTANT laying
    off and bloodletting of employees and jobs with no abatement ever in
    sight, only more and more and more layoffs are on our horizon if we do
    not fight back NOW, has resulted in nearly 40% of all Americans 40 or
    older living in dire poverty, no matter what race they are.

    the so called 'middle classes' of America have been undermined by
    fragrant violation of immigration laws that have morbidly tumbled our
    labor laws and labor market and labor rights into a puree of enchilada
    wet meal, resulting in the vast majority of the American masses living
    off of dozens of credit cards, which soon will backfire along due to
    the new anti-bankruptcy family laws engaged by GW Bush [CEOs and
    mega-corporations may claim bankruptcy whenever they feel like it
    though], ALL THIS ....along with the imminent total collapse of the
    Fannie Mae home mortgage agency, the richest bank in America and nobody
    knows it! WHY SO RICH? It is your money they are playing with,
    taxpayers blood and guts, and not their money, with no accountability.

    Look into the South Korean manufacturing giant LG Electronics [formerly
    called GOLDSTAR and supplier of nearly everything you think is GE or
    Whirlpool or Sears or Kenmore!] to understand the Whirlpool/Maytag
    [same company now] demolition-downsizing-destruction taking place as we
    are all sleeping the sleep of the dead to the numbing and dumbing down
    sound of Fox TV and its ***** whore incestuous relationship with
    HOMELAND IMPURITY's Michael Chertoff.

    I BEG to ask why African Americans purged by FEMA in the Gulf Coast
    region and also the whites of Michigan laid off like minnows --- why
    they don't show some spunk and fight back rather than taking it like
    ninnies on their backs with their pants down. Our unions got in bed
    with the bad guys long long ago and will never help us out of this,
    they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. We must
    mobilize first thing in the morning and create and promote our own new
    millenium union organizing with no help or affiliation with any of the
    old unions. This must be done now!

    One example of what we are fighting as a nation, as freedom fighters
    like our founding fathers had to do!

    Shirlington Limo service in Washington DC got hundreds of millions of
    dollars funding from Homeland Security contractor connections and
    Porter Goss of the CIA, that is why he quit. the entire US nation is
    run now like a Sicilian mafia but the main drug being sold is satellite
    weaponry, cell phone telecommunication technology, aerospace weapons
    and missles and vehicles, and death and war and guns, and biotechnology
    products that are terrifying, much more than any gangly gang of
    terrorists.

    The Shirlington Limo service connected to Porter Goss is now under
    indictment for peddling prostitutes and influence on U.S. congressmen,
    besides the hundreds of millions of Chertoff Homeland Security
    kickbacks they swallowed down deeply in the backs of their throats,
    payoffs and hookers expressly at the senatorial level, and all funded
    through Homeland Security backdoors and contractors slurping at the
    trough of subcontracting federal agencies with next to no
    accountability now that the Bu****es have taken all the bite out of the
    regulatory GAO, General Accounting Office of the US government!

    BRANT BASSETT
    http://www.angelfire.com/blog/promis/PROMIS.html
    http://www.angelfire.com/blog/ffb_exim/TREASURY.html




  13. #28
    DecaturTxCowboy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    I signed up for the new NSA Friends and Family plan



  14. #29
    Jer
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    John Navas wrote:
    > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
    >
    > In <[email protected]> on Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:17 -0500,
    > Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>RNess wrote:
    >>
    >>>An important note:
    >>>
    >>>Backhaul is totally different than calls and call records.
    >>>Backhaul are simply data circuits. T1s, DS3s OCX, etc, etc.
    >>>Just dumb pipes connecting point A and point B. There isn't
    >>>really any way, short of actual sniffing, to peek at actual traffic.
    >>>
    >>>It is CALL records that is being discussed here. Not the traffic
    >>>on the pipes themselves.
    >>>
    >>>The data mining of a call record DATABASE.
    >>>
    >>>Apples and bowling balls....

    >>
    >>An absolutely true and spot on comment.

    >
    >
    > So they say. You believe them ... why?


    I'm experienced, and know what's possible from a technical and
    logistical perspective.


    >
    > In any event, call information can of course be mined by backhaul providers.
    >


    A backhaul transport provider wouldn't have access to any SS7 data nor
    other call control functions beyond their own network - an incomplete
    picture. In order to have a complete picture, virtually every backhaul
    route would have to be sniffed, and all the collected bits wouldhave to
    be sifted and reassembled after the call event. Let's be realistic,
    nobody really cares how the call was transported - only that the call
    event occurred - and only the call origination point has this info,
    whether the call was completed or not. The NSA, and others, already has
    access to that.

    The part that bothers me about all this is... access to detailed call
    records (historical) ordinarily requires a Title 1 warrant. A warrant
    such as this is available from a variety of sources, including FISA.
    From what I've heard, the NSA didn't even attempt to get a warrant.
    Why is that? If they did attempt but failed to receive one, why isn't
    someone talking about that? If they had a warrant, they'd be completely
    legal with their plan and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    --
    jer
    email reply - I am not a 'ten'



  15. #30
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 14 May 2006 08:10:37 -0500,
    Jer <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas wrote:
    >>
    >> In <[email protected]> on Fri, 12 May 2006 19:07:17 -0500,
    >> Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>RNess wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>An important note:
    >>>>
    >>>>Backhaul is totally different than calls and call records.
    >>>>Backhaul are simply data circuits. T1s, DS3s OCX, etc, etc.
    >>>>Just dumb pipes connecting point A and point B. There isn't
    >>>>really any way, short of actual sniffing, to peek at actual traffic.
    >>>>
    >>>>It is CALL records that is being discussed here. Not the traffic
    >>>>on the pipes themselves.
    >>>>
    >>>>The data mining of a call record DATABASE.
    >>>>
    >>>>Apples and bowling balls....
    >>>
    >>>An absolutely true and spot on comment.

    >>
    >> So they say. You believe them ... why?

    >
    >I'm experienced, and know what's possible from a technical and
    >logistical perspective.


    Different issue -- my question was about only examining call records, not the
    calls themselves.

    >> In any event, call information can of course be mined by backhaul providers.

    >
    >A backhaul transport provider wouldn't have access to any SS7 data nor
    >other call control functions beyond their own network - an incomplete
    >picture. In order to have a complete picture, virtually every backhaul
    >route would have to be sniffed, and all the collected bits wouldhave to
    >be sifted and reassembled after the call event. Let's be realistic,
    >nobody really cares how the call was transported - only that the call
    >event occurred - and only the call origination point has this info,
    >whether the call was completed or not. The NSA, and others, already has
    >access to that.


    Backhaul carriers have access to all the necessary information.

    >The part that bothers me about all this is... access to detailed call
    >records (historical) ordinarily requires a Title 1 warrant. A warrant
    >such as this is available from a variety of sources, including FISA.
    > From what I've heard, the NSA didn't even attempt to get a warrant.
    >Why is that? If they did attempt but failed to receive one, why isn't
    >someone talking about that? If they had a warrant, they'd be completely
    >legal with their plan and we wouldn't be having this conversation.


    The story is that NSA didn't ask for fear it would be turned down.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



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