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  1. #1
    Joshua Putnam
    Guest
    Looking at today's revelations about craven phone company executives
    going along with NSA snooping on phone records, I will admit to
    having found one good thing to say about Qwest, which refused to
    violate privacy laws for the NSA's convenience unless the NSA could
    provide either FISA court authorization or a letter from the U.S.
    Attorney General authorizing the program. (NSA refused to document
    the legal basis for their program, they say, because they didn't
    expect they'd *get* approval from FISA or the Attorney General. But
    they demand cooperation anyway.)

    So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.

    Coverage of this story is different in different places, so far I
    haven't seen any mention of which cell phone companies have
    capitulated to the NSA and which are operating within the laws and
    Constitution.

    Has anyone seen a listing of which cell phone companies, if any, are
    ethical enough to resist the NSA's effort to track every phone call
    in the country?

    --
    [email protected] is Joshua Putnam
    http://www.phred.org/~josh
    "My other bike is a car."



    See More: Cingular call details and the NSA?




  2. #2
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Thu, 11 May 2006
    10:16:54 -0700, Joshua Putnam <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Looking at today's revelations about craven phone company executives
    >going along with NSA snooping on phone records, I will admit to
    >having found one good thing to say about Qwest, which refused to
    >violate privacy laws for the NSA's convenience unless the NSA could
    >provide either FISA court authorization or a letter from the U.S.
    >Attorney General authorizing the program. (NSA refused to document
    >the legal basis for their program, they say, because they didn't
    >expect they'd *get* approval from FISA or the Attorney General. But
    >they demand cooperation anyway.)
    >
    >So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    >company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.
    >
    >Coverage of this story is different in different places, so far I
    >haven't seen any mention of which cell phone companies have
    >capitulated to the NSA and which are operating within the laws and
    >Constitution.
    >
    >Has anyone seen a listing of which cell phone companies, if any, are
    >ethical enough to resist the NSA's effort to track every phone call
    >in the country?


    AT&T and BellSouth been cooperating with the NSA for some time, so it's a good
    bet that Cingular has or will do that also. Likewise Verizon. See
    "NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls"
    <http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA>
    No mention is made of any other carriers.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  3. #3
    Viper
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    It is all about BIG BROTHER. He's every where. Soon we will all have chips
    planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more. Next they will make a
    record every time we go to the bath room and they will want a sample of it.


    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
    >
    > In <[email protected]> on Thu, 11 May 2006
    > 10:16:54 -0700, Joshua Putnam <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Looking at today's revelations about craven phone company executives
    >>going along with NSA snooping on phone records, I will admit to
    >>having found one good thing to say about Qwest, which refused to
    >>violate privacy laws for the NSA's convenience unless the NSA could
    >>provide either FISA court authorization or a letter from the U.S.
    >>Attorney General authorizing the program. (NSA refused to document
    >>the legal basis for their program, they say, because they didn't
    >>expect they'd *get* approval from FISA or the Attorney General. But
    >>they demand cooperation anyway.)
    >>
    >>So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    >>company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.
    >>
    >>Coverage of this story is different in different places, so far I
    >>haven't seen any mention of which cell phone companies have
    >>capitulated to the NSA and which are operating within the laws and
    >>Constitution.
    >>
    >>Has anyone seen a listing of which cell phone companies, if any, are
    >>ethical enough to resist the NSA's effort to track every phone call
    >>in the country?

    >
    > AT&T and BellSouth been cooperating with the NSA for some time, so it's a
    > good
    > bet that Cingular has or will do that also. Likewise Verizon. See
    > "NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls"
    > <http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA>
    > No mention is made of any other carriers.
    >
    > --
    > Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    > John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>






  4. #4
    Ghod
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    "Viper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    : It is all about BIG BROTHER. He's every where. Soon we will all have
    chips
    : planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more. Next they will
    make a
    : record every time we go to the bath room and they will want a sample
    of it.

    Hah.





  5. #5
    David G. Imber
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:03:55 -0400, "Viper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Soon we will all have chips
    >planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more.


    On the up-side, we'll be able to Google things without a
    computer.




  6. #6
    Isaiah Beard
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    Joshua Putnam wrote:

    >
    > So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    > company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.


    The answer to that depends on your political slant. But, Cingular is
    run by AT&T and BellSouth, both comapnies which cooperated/colluded with
    the NSA. While not explicitly stated, it would stand to reason that
    chances are, those call records were part of the package deal.

    Furthermore, I don't think anyone who is a Sprint, Nextel, T-Mobile OR
    Qwest customer should sigh in relief and assume they just flew under the
    radar. The call details most likely included any call that started OR
    ended on an AT&T/Verizon-owned network (Bellsouth, for all intents and
    purposes IS or is very soon to be a part of AT&T at this point, so I
    don't list them separately). Most wireless companies must contract with
    an LEC in the area for backhaul to their cell sites, meaning calls could
    have been carried on those networks and thus logged. And of course, the
    activity of anyone CALLING a Verizon or AT&T phone would have been
    captured as well.

    > Coverage of this story is different in different places, so far I
    > haven't seen any mention of which cell phone companies have
    > capitulated to the NSA and which are operating within the laws and
    > Constitution.


    See above. Quite a large cross section of activity can be captured by
    those two companies based on their sheer size. Sprint, T-Mobile and
    others may not have NEEDED to explicitly cooperate to have many of their
    customer's records become part of this as well.

    But again, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon Wireless or Cingular were
    also explicitly part of the cooperation.




    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.



  7. #7
    DecaturTxCowboy
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    Viper wrote:
    > It is all about BIG BROTHER. He's every where. Soon we will all have chips
    > planted in our *brains* so we can be tracked even more. Next they will make a
    > record every time we go to the *bath room* and they will want a sample of it.


    That certainly redefines the NSA's thinking we have sh*t for brains





  8. #8
    Joshua Putnam
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > Joshua Putnam wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    > > company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.

    >
    > The answer to that depends on your political slant.


    I suppose so.

    As a conservative, I think the Administration's activist approach and
    flagrant violation of the rule of law is a real issue. I suppose,
    however, that Bush Republicans, having abandoned their principals
    years ago, may not have any concerns about the use of their
    precedents by future administrations.

    And while Democrats are certainly taking political advantage of the
    Bush follies, you can't convince me that many of them aren't looking
    forward to having these expanded powers themselves under President
    Hillary.

    --
    [email protected] is Joshua Putnam
    http://www.phred.org/~josh
    "My other bike is a car."



  9. #9
    GolfGod
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?


    "Viper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > It is all about BIG BROTHER. He's every where. Soon we will all have chips
    > planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more. Next they will make
    > a record every time we go to the bath room and they will want a sample of
    > it.


    Just for the record, I really think my neighbor keeps the samples at his
    house.





  10. #10
    GolfGod
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?


    "Joshua Putnam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >> Joshua Putnam wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> > So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    >> > company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.

    >>
    >> The answer to that depends on your political slant.

    >
    > I suppose so.
    >
    > As a conservative, I think the Administration's activist approach and
    > flagrant violation of the rule of law is a real issue. I suppose,
    > however, that Bush Republicans, having abandoned their principals
    > years ago, may not have any concerns about the use of their
    > precedents by future administrations.
    >
    > And while Democrats are certainly taking political advantage of the
    > Bush follies, you can't convince me that many of them aren't looking
    > forward to having these expanded powers themselves under President
    > Hillary.

    There won't be a president Hillary (unless you count Bill's tenure), just a
    candidate Hillary.





  11. #11
    Raymond Arritt
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    David G. Imber wrote:
    > On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:03:55 -0400, "Viper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Soon we will all have chips
    >>planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more.

    >
    > On the up-side, we'll be able to Google things without a
    > computer.


    And when we get all confused we can just reboot ourselves.


    --
    Stop taking yourself so seriously. Humans share 88 percent of their
    genes with rodents.



  12. #12
    Joshua Putnam
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    One glimmer of integrity in the cell phone industry, apparently:

    "T-Mobile USA, a wireless operator based in Bellevue, Washington,
    later said it also does not participate, The Associated Press
    reported."

    I have nothing to hide in my own phone traffic, so I'm not
    particularly bothered that other companies may have illegally
    provided my phone records to a rogue agency. But I value the rule
    of law enough that I will seriously consider switching my company's
    service to a carrier that obeys the law. I can at least give my
    money to a company that respects the law, even if other companies
    allow the NSA to snoop on me anyway.


    --
    [email protected] is Joshua Putnam
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
    Updated Infrared Photography Books List:
    <http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/irbooks.html>



  13. #13
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    Tinman wrote:
    > On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:03:55 -0400, "Viper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> It is all about BIG BROTHER. He's every where. Soon we will all have chips
    >> planted in our brains so we can be tracked even more.

    >
    > I hope we aren't going to have to water those chips after they are
    > planted. Some of us live in the desert you know.


    It rains in the desert. Just not real often.

    **SJS, living in the desert.

    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek ** Java/VB/VC/PHP/Perl ** Linux/*BSD/Windows
    Apple Valley, CA
    Resident of Southern California -
    the home of beautiful people and butt-ugly traffic jams



  14. #14
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Thu, 11 May 2006 20:50:28 -0400,
    Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Joshua Putnam wrote:
    >
    >> So, as a patriotic American, I'd like to know whether my cell phone
    >> company is run by cowards or law-abiding citizens.

    >
    >The answer to that depends on your political slant. But, Cingular is
    >run by AT&T and BellSouth, both comapnies which cooperated/colluded with
    >the NSA. While not explicitly stated, it would stand to reason that
    >chances are, those call records were part of the package deal.


    Perhaps, but not necessarily -- while at&t and BellSouth are the parents of
    Cingular, they don't directly "run" it -- as is common in a joint venture, as
    compared to a subsidiary, Cingular has its own separate management.

    >Furthermore, I don't think anyone who is a Sprint, Nextel, T-Mobile OR
    >Qwest customer should sigh in relief and assume they just flew under the
    >radar. The call details most likely included any call that started OR
    >ended on an AT&T/Verizon-owned network (Bellsouth, for all intents and
    >purposes IS or is very soon to be a part of AT&T at this point, so I
    >don't list them separately). Most wireless companies must contract with
    >an LEC in the area for backhaul to their cell sites, meaning calls could
    >have been carried on those networks and thus logged. And of course, the
    >activity of anyone CALLING a Verizon or AT&T phone would have been
    >captured as well.


    Good points.

    >But again, I wouldn't be surprised if Verizon Wireless or Cingular were
    >also explicitly part of the cooperation.


    I think it somewhat more likely that Verizon Wireless (Cellco Partnership) was
    involved than Cingular, since it shares management with Verizon (Ivan G.
    Seidenberg is Chairman of both Verizon and Cellco Partnership), but it's
    reasonable to assume that both Verizon Wireless and Cingular were involved.

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  15. #15

    Re: Cingular call details and the NSA?

    I called Cingular this morning and they claim that they are not
    participating.
    ------------------------------------------------
    http://www.cafepress.com/bush_dogger...23?pid=2794571




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