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  1. #61
    james g. keegan jr.
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    In article <[email protected]>,
    SMS <[email protected]> wrote:

    > james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 08:29:00 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    > >> wrote in <[email protected]>:
    > >>
    > >>> By now, most AT&T customers that were coerced into a Cingular contract ...
    > >> No ATTWS (not AT&T) customers were "coerced" in any way.

    > >
    > > when you post something like that i am forced to conclude that you
    > > are willfully dishonest or obstinately ignorant.

    >
    > Or both.


    or both, i agree.

    > AT&T customers were definitely coerced (or deceived) into switching, I
    > personally know of three instances of this happening. Whether it was
    > deception or coercion is splitting hairs, the lawsuit says it was
    > deception, and maybe deception is actually the more correct description.
    >
    > Where he got the idea that AT&T customers, that were under contract,
    > could leave without paying the termination fee, we'll never know.
    >
    > It's actually amusing to see Cingular's PR machine in action (the real
    > one, not Navas's). Every time there is a lawsuit, and every time a new
    > independent survey comes out, the stock Cingular response is to talk
    > about how many billions of dollars they are spending to improve their
    > network, as if that makes everything they did to their customers okay.


    cingular is in trouble. they had every opportunity to close the gap
    with verizon. instead they were outmanaged by sprint who moved ahead
    of them in many categories.

    i wouldn't be surprised to see a cingular management shakeup.



    See More: Customers file deception suit against Cingular




  2. #62
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    james g. keegan jr. wrote:

    > i wouldn't be surprised to see a cingular management shakeup.


    I don't know how that would help solve their problems.

    Long term, they should be able to improve their margins, once they are
    able to be all-GSM, and reduce their expenditures on network
    improvements (this is going to happen next year according to analysts).
    Of course it remains to be seen how long it'll take to have a positive
    ROI after spending $41 billion on AT&T Wireless, and all the
    expenditures for HSDPA deployment. Verizon is doing so well because CDMA
    and EV-DO proved to be a lot less expensive to deploy.



  3. #63
    DecaturTxCowboy
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    Scott wrote:
    > Hey John- where di you get your legal degree from?



    John has posted that he worked as a law clerk...or something like that.



  4. #64
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular


    "DecaturTxCowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Scott wrote:
    >> Hey John- where di you get your legal degree from?

    >
    >
    > John has posted that he worked as a law clerk...or something like that.


    Actually, his professed experience is as an "expert witness" some years back
    and that this experience gave him a much higher understanding of the legal
    system than the rest of us.





  5. #65
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    Scott wrote:
    > "DecaturTxCowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Scott wrote:
    >>> Hey John- where di you get your legal degree from?

    >>
    >> John has posted that he worked as a law clerk...or something like that.

    >
    > Actually, his professed experience is as an "expert witness" some years back
    > and that this experience gave him a much higher understanding of the legal
    > system than the rest of us.


    Ah, just like my experience as a patient in my general practitioner's office
    gives me a much higher understanding of medicine than most people who aren't
    doctors?

    "Expert witness" means "expert in your field" where "your field" is something
    other than law.

    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek ** Java/VB/VC/PHP/Perl ** Linux/*BSD/Windows
    Apple Valley, California PGP:0xE3AE35ED

    It's all fun and games until someone starts a bonfire in the living room.



  6. #66
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular


    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Scott wrote:
    >> "DecaturTxCowboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> Scott wrote:
    >>>> Hey John- where di you get your legal degree from?
    >>>
    >>> John has posted that he worked as a law clerk...or something like that.

    >>
    >> Actually, his professed experience is as an "expert witness" some years
    >> back
    >> and that this experience gave him a much higher understanding of the
    >> legal
    >> system than the rest of us.

    >
    > Ah, just like my experience as a patient in my general practitioner's
    > office
    > gives me a much higher understanding of medicine than most people who
    > aren't
    > doctors?


    Exactly.

    >
    > "Expert witness" means "expert in your field" where "your field" is
    > something
    > other than law.
    >


    For the entire population of the planet, except JN.





  7. #67
    Rudy Reckel
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular


    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > No ATTWS (not AT&T) customers were "coerced" in any way


    While not being "coerced", I was put over a barrel. Been a customer since
    Cellular one days and was very happy with my ATT account with my Samsung
    426x. All of a sudden the internet stopped working on the phone. It was fine
    on 3 other different phones. After 3 months of trying through customer
    service and way too many phone calls, it was found there was an "issue" in
    the ENTIRE north east with that phone model connecting to the Cingular
    towers and the issue in my case was the dismantling of the ATT tower that
    served the area since Cingular was here too. I told CIngular I had to have
    internet for business purposes and was told the only way to get it was to
    switch to Cingular. The phone was 15 months into a two year ATT contract and
    I was basically told I was screwed. No new phones would be activated to ATT
    and switching to Cingular would cost $80 per line, I have 4 and would have
    to do them all, ) AND I was gonna get hit with the $200 ATT early
    termination fee. It took more calls than necessary, several from a lawyer,
    to convince Cingular that I paid for mMode service, They removed it from me
    and was not giving me any recourse and CINGULAR was breaking the contract.
    Wasn't "coerced" but was told pay the fees or do with out.





  8. #68
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    Cingular, Verizon Wireless face class-action lawsuits
    <http://rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=26776>

    Verizon Wireless, meantime, faces a new class action suit that moved
    to federal court in Detroit late last month.

    The suit--technically filed against parent Verizon Communications Inc.
    but directed at its wireless unit--alleges Verizon Wireless charged a
    monthly $2 roadside assistance fee since January 2004 without prior
    consent and later refused to offer refunds for the charge. The suit
    accuses Verizon Wireless of violating Michigan’s consumer protection
    act, breach of contract and unjust enrichment.

    A Verizon Wireless spokeswoman declined to comment, noting the No. 2
    mobile carrier has yet to file a response with the court.

    Verizon Bias Suit Deal Sets Record
    <http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13672>

    Verizon Communications Inc. will pay almost $49 million to 12,326
    current and former female employees as part of a landmark class-action
    lawsuit alleging pregnancy discrimination.

    The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission reached a settlement
    in 2002 against Verizon predecessors Nynex Corp. and Bell Atlantic
    Corp. But the total amount of the settlement was not made public until
    yesterday, when the EEOC completed its projections of how much would
    be paid in future benefits.

    The final figure makes the case the largest pregnancy discrimination
    settlement in EEOC history. It covers women in 13 states and the
    District.

    Verizon Implements New Policies In Face Of Defense Of California Class
    Action Regarding Cancellation Fees
    <http://classactiondefense.jmbm.com/2006/06/verizon_implements_new_policie.html>

    Both the Los Angeles Times and Yuki Noguchi of the Washington Post
    report today on yesterday's announcement by Verizon that it will soon
    implement a fundamental change in its cancellation fee policy for
    cellular telephone subscribers. In the face of a California class
    action that the Times reports seeks "to recover early cancellation
    fees from Verizon Wireless and Sprint Nextel," the company will
    calculate the early termination fee based on the proportional amount
    of time remaining on the subscription agreement.

    Verizon's defense against this California class action is not a lone
    event. Similar class actions are pending in several states, the
    Washington Post reports. ...

    --
    Best regards, SEE THE FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS AT
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  9. #69
    james g. keegan jr.
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    In article <o2lsg.13966$Wh7.4095@trnddc07>,
    "Rudy Reckel" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > No ATTWS (not AT&T) customers were "coerced" in any way

    >
    > While not being "coerced", I was put over a barrel. Been a customer since
    > Cellular one days and was very happy with my ATT account with my Samsung
    > 426x. All of a sudden the internet stopped working on the phone. It was fine
    > on 3 other different phones. After 3 months of trying through customer
    > service and way too many phone calls, it was found there was an "issue" in
    > the ENTIRE north east with that phone model connecting to the Cingular
    > towers and the issue in my case was the dismantling of the ATT tower that
    > served the area since Cingular was here too. I told CIngular I had to have
    > internet for business purposes and was told the only way to get it was to
    > switch to Cingular. The phone was 15 months into a two year ATT contract and
    > I was basically told I was screwed. No new phones would be activated to ATT
    > and switching to Cingular would cost $80 per line, I have 4 and would have
    > to do them all, ) AND I was gonna get hit with the $200 ATT early
    > termination fee. It took more calls than necessary, several from a lawyer,
    > to convince Cingular that I paid for mMode service, They removed it from me
    > and was not giving me any recourse and CINGULAR was breaking the contract.
    > Wasn't "coerced" but was told pay the fees or do with out.



    just think of how many others were pressured in the same manner,
    illegally of course.



  10. #70
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    > In article <o2lsg.13966$Wh7.4095@trnddc07>,
    > "Rudy Reckel" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>> No ATTWS (not AT&T) customers were "coerced" in any way

    >> While not being "coerced", I was put over a barrel. Been a customer since
    >> Cellular one days and was very happy with my ATT account with my Samsung
    >> 426x. All of a sudden the internet stopped working on the phone. It was fine
    >> on 3 other different phones. After 3 months of trying through customer
    >> service and way too many phone calls, it was found there was an "issue" in
    >> the ENTIRE north east with that phone model connecting to the Cingular
    >> towers and the issue in my case was the dismantling of the ATT tower that
    >> served the area since Cingular was here too. I told CIngular I had to have
    >> internet for business purposes and was told the only way to get it was to
    >> switch to Cingular. The phone was 15 months into a two year ATT contract and
    >> I was basically told I was screwed. No new phones would be activated to ATT
    >> and switching to Cingular would cost $80 per line, I have 4 and would have
    >> to do them all, ) AND I was gonna get hit with the $200 ATT early
    >> termination fee. It took more calls than necessary, several from a lawyer,
    >> to convince Cingular that I paid for mMode service, They removed it from me
    >> and was not giving me any recourse and CINGULAR was breaking the contract.
    >> Wasn't "coerced" but was told pay the fees or do with out.

    >
    >
    > just think of how many others were pressured in the same manner,
    > illegally of course.


    Well that's what's going to be interesting. As deceptive as it was, it
    may not have been illegal. Cingular could argue that AT&T Wireless
    customers had no guarantee of coverage where they previously had
    coverage. Cingular may claim that what some people call coercion and
    deception, was merely encouragement. Of course they can't say any of
    that in open court, which is why this will most likely be settled out of
    court.

    The plaintiffs are not suing for enough. The percentage of customers
    under contract was almost certainly around 75-80% (of around 20
    million). I don't know how many AT&T Wireless customers had problems,
    but all of the ones I know who were on AT&T Wireless, had the deception
    practiced on them (a sample of three).



  11. #71
    Dave
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    SMS wrote:
    > james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    >
    >> i wouldn't be surprised to see a cingular management shakeup.

    >
    > I don't know how that would help solve their problems.
    >
    > Long term, they should be able to improve their margins, once they are
    > able to be all-GSM, and reduce their expenditures on network
    > improvements (this is going to happen next year according to analysts).
    > Of course it remains to be seen how long it'll take to have a positive
    > ROI after spending $41 billion on AT&T Wireless, and all the
    > expenditures for HSDPA deployment. Verizon is doing so well because CDMA
    > and EV-DO proved to be a lot less expensive to deploy.



    And don't forget the costs of changing back to the AT&T name sometime in
    the near future.



  12. #72
    Jim Seymour
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Steve Sobol <[email protected]> writes:
    > SMS wrote:
    >
    >> Can you imagine trying to choose a jury for a case like this? They'd
    >> have to choose jurors that were never an AT&T Wireless or Cingular
    >> customer.

    >
    > Here I am. But I'm way biased against AT&T/SBC anyhow, so I'd not be a good
    > juror.

    [snip]

    What Steve said. Some of us, tho never having been AT&T or Cingular
    customers, would not be good for Cingular on a jury because we
    basically distrust and dislike anything even remotely associated with
    SBC.

    --
    Jim Seymour | "There is no expedient to which a man will not
    [email protected] | go to avoid the labor of thinking."
    http://jimsun.LinxNet.com | - Thomas A. Edison



  13. #73
    Jim Seymour
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    In article <[email protected]>,
    John Navas <[email protected]> writes:
    > Cingular, Verizon Wireless face class-action lawsuits
    > <http://rcrnews.com/news.cms?newsId=26776>
    >
    > Verizon Wireless, meantime, faces a new class action suit that moved
    > to federal court in Detroit late last month.

    [snip]

    Yeah, okay, so? VZ is an ILEC, just like SBC. You expect something
    different? *shrug* We're almost back to the "bad old days" of Ma
    Bell (aka: "The Phone Company"), but without the regulatory
    protections that existed back then. These old-school TelCom people
    will continue to stonewall on modern, advanced telecommunications as
    long as they can, gouging their customers all the while, whenever
    they can get away with it. There's nothing much to stop them and
    they've little incentive to improve their products. The paltry little
    fines that some state regulators occasionally impose are regarded by
    the TelCom monopolies as nothing more than a cost of doing business.

    --
    Jim Seymour | "There is no expedient to which a man will not
    [email protected] | go to avoid the labor of thinking."
    http://jimsun.LinxNet.com | - Thomas A. Edison



  14. #74
    DecaturTxCowboy
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    Jim Seymour wrote:
    > will continue to stonewall on modern, advanced telecommunications as
    > long as they can, gouging their customers all the while, whenever
    > they can get away with it. There's nothing much to stop them and
    > they've little incentive to improve their products.


    The "Preservation of Innovation of Telecom Act" that we see many states
    passing to prohibit free municipal WiFi to protect cellular wireless
    broadband comes to mind.



  15. #75
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Customers file deception suit against Cingular

    [email protected] (Jim Seymour) wrote in news:12bs8sniodt5u57
    @corp.supernews.com:

    > basically distrust and dislike anything even remotely associated with
    > SBC.
    >


    ....or cellular phone companies.....(c;



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