"Nokia needs device revamp to regain U.S. ground: analysts"

"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092500685.html"

Duh, Nokia has essentially abandoned CDMA, which is the leading
technology in the U.S., with the most subscribers and an increasing
market share. Motorola can amortize their development and marketing
costs over a much larger TAM.

---

› See More: "Nokia needs device revamp to regain U.S. ground: analysts"

> http://www.newmobile.nl/eur/en/news.php?news_id=d3f56d

SMS wrote:
> "http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092500685.html"
>
>
> Duh, Nokia has essentially abandoned CDMA, which is the leading
> technology in the U.S., with the most subscribers and an increasing
> market share. Motorola can amortize their development and marketing
> costs over a much larger TAM.

Stop cross-posting Troll!

"CDMA is the leading technology in the US?" Maybe in terms of coverage,
but I wonder for how long... GSM is gaining grownd in the US: Cingular
and T-Mobile's current networks are based on GSM, it's their future.
GSM is the standard followed by most of the world, so if you plan to
travel (unless you're making all your trips to Tokyo), a GSM phone with
a GSM provider is a good choice.

Plus look at Verizon (leading CDMA provider) their coverage is the only
thing they have to be proud of, their policies are the worst of the
bunch, their handset selection is horrible compared to Cingular and
T-Mobile. Even in terms of their PDA phone selection, you won't find
anything as nice as the Cingular 8125 or T-Mobile MDA at your Verizon
retailer, instead you'll find their PDA selection equal to Cingular and
T-Mobiles 2005 models, Verizon doesn't care either. Sprint/Nextel
provides proof that when implemented poorly CDMA sucks worse than GSM,
it's all in the implementation not the protocol.

Regarding Nokia, I've read they are focusing on Japanese market and GSM
for international markets. Outside of the US, CDMA is pretty much a
legacy standard as it's largely been replaced with WCDMA in Japan,
which was the the only other signifigant cell market to embrace CDMA
that I am aware of.



if you combine Cingular and T-Mobile's GSM base Wouldn't subscribers
be directly related to
market share?

SMS wrote:
> "http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092500685.html"
>
> Duh, Nokia has essentially abandoned CDMA, which is the leading
> technology in the U.S., with the most subscribers and an increasing
> market share. Motorola can amortize their development and marketing
> costs over a much larger TAM.

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, [email protected] wrote:
> "CDMA is the leading technology in the US?" Maybe in terms of coverage,
> but I wonder for how long... GSM is gaining grownd in the US: Cingular
> and T-Mobile's current networks are based on GSM, it's their future.

GSM is gaining ground at the expense of TDMA. It makes abundant sense to
retire TDMA with GSM.

However, new CDMA networks continue to appear in North America. For
example, the Yukon just went from no cellular service outside of
Whitehorse to having a CDMA network in every major settlement. There is
no GSM in the Canadian north. A huge buildout of CDMA also just occurred
in Alaska, making CDMA competitive with the GSM network in Alaska for the
first time.

> GSM is the standard followed by most of the world, so if you plan to
> travel (unless you're making all your trips to Tokyo), a GSM phone with
> a GSM provider is a good choice.

GSM is the standard in most of the world today, but it's on its way out
with WCDMA (UMTS) replacing it.

Don't let the name fool you: WCDMA is a successor/replacement for GSM, and
not necessarily CDMA. UMTS has appeared in the UK, Australia, and other
countries as the 3G replacement for GSM. UMTS is also (slowly) coming
along in the US. It's the GSM carriers, not the CDMA carriers, which are
deploying UMTS.

Also note that there is no GSM at all in Japan, Saipan, and South Korea.

> Outside of the US, CDMA is pretty much a
> legacy standard as it's largely been replaced with WCDMA in Japan,

Nonsense. Both au and Tu-Ka in Japan use CDMA 2000 1x, although not
compatble with overseas CDMA.

The W-CDMA players in Japan is Softbank (formerly Vodafone Japan) with
UMTS and NTT DoCoMo with FOMA; neither of which had CDMA.

The 3G replacement for CDMA, competing with UMTS, is 1xEV-DO.

For what it's worth, China has its own 3D called TD-SCDMA which is sort of
a mix of TDMA and CDMA spread spectrum synchronous uplinks tossed in, all
in an attempt to avoid paying patent fees to Qualcomm and the 3G
consortioum.

> which was the the only other signifigant cell market to embrace CDMA
> that I am aware of.

The following countries have CDMA: Aruba, Bermuda, Bonaire, Brazil,
British Virgin Islands, Canada, China, Curacao, Dominican Republic, Guam,
India, Israel, Macau, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Saipan, South Korea, St.
Maarten, Taiwan, Thailand, US Virgin Islands, Venezuela.

I'll grant that a number of these are small Carribean islands, but there
are some significant markets besides North America there too.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

[email protected] wrote:

>Stop cross-posting Troll!
>
>"CDMA is the leading technology in the US?" Maybe in terms of coverage,
>but I wonder for how long... GSM is gaining grownd in the US: Cingular
>and T-Mobile's current networks are based on GSM, it's their future.
>GSM is the standard followed by most of the world, so if you plan to
>travel (unless you're making all your trips to Tokyo), a GSM phone with
>a GSM provider is a good choice.
>
>
I think you will find that GSM is now being superseded by CDMA in
allot of markets. Hopefully one day both CDMA and GSM will merge into
one standard.... just like HD-DVD and Blu-Ray..

Mark Crispin <[email protected]> wrote:


>
>The following countries have CDMA: Aruba, Bermuda, Bonaire, Brazil,
>British Virgin Islands, Canada, China, Curacao, Dominican Republic, Guam,
>India, Israel, Macau, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Saipan, South Korea, St.
>Maarten, Taiwan, Thailand, US Virgin Islands, Venezuela.
>
>I'll grant that a number of these are small Carribean islands, but there
>are some significant markets besides North America there too.
>

Add Australia to that group..

Mark Crispin wrote:

> However, new CDMA networks continue to appear in North America. For
> example, the Yukon just went from no cellular service outside of
> Whitehorse to having a CDMA network in every major settlement. There is
> no GSM in the Canadian north. A huge buildout of CDMA also just
> occurred in Alaska, making CDMA competitive with the GSM network in
> Alaska for the first time.

Huh? When I was last in Alaska, there was CDMA in the major towns, but
there was no GSM at all. GSM began in Alaska in about 2004, but adoption
has been slow because so much of Alaska is AMPS only, and there are not
GSM/AMPS handsets. A lot of Alaskans switched from TDMA/AMPS to
CDMA/AMPS, rather than give up AMPS for GSM.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Mutlley wrote:
> >The following countries have CDMA: Aruba, Bermuda, Bonaire, Brazil,
> >British Virgin Islands, Canada, China, Curacao, Dominican Republic, Guam,
> >India, Israel, Macau, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Saipan, South Korea, St.
> >Maarten, Taiwan, Thailand, US Virgin Islands, Venezuela.
> Add Australia to that group..

Are you certain that you're thinking about WCDMA (a.k.a. UTMS) which is
quite different from CDMA? Australia definitely has WCDMA, which is the
3G successor to GSM. As I explained in my posting, the 3G successor to
CDMA is EV-DO.

Many people are confused by the similarity in names and mistakenly believe
that WCDMA == CMDA. It doesn't.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Mutlley wrote:
> I think you will find that GSM is now being superseded by CDMA in
> allot of markets. Hopefully one day both CDMA and GSM will merge into
> one standard.... just like HD-DVD and Blu-Ray..

I haven't heard of any GSM network being replaced by CDMA. GSM is being
replaced by WCDMA (a.k.a. UTMS) just as CDMA is being replaced by EV-DO.
In spite of the similarity in names, the transition from GSM to WCDMA does
not mean that GSM is being replaced by CDMA.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, SMS wrote:
> Mark Crispin wrote:
>> However, new CDMA networks continue to appear in North America. For
>> example, the Yukon just went from no cellular service outside of Whitehorse
>> to having a CDMA network in every major settlement. There is no GSM in the
>> Canadian north. A huge buildout of CDMA also just occurred in Alaska,
>> making CDMA competitive with the GSM network in Alaska for the first time.
> Huh? When I was last in Alaska, there was CDMA in the major towns, but there
> was no GSM at all. GSM began in Alaska in about 2004, but adoption has been
> slow because so much of Alaska is AMPS only, and there are not GSM/AMPS
> handsets. A lot of Alaskans switched from TDMA/AMPS to CDMA/AMPS, rather than
> give up AMPS for GSM.

I'm quite familiar with the cellular situation in Alaska, being a property
owner there and constantly monitoring the choices.

In mainland Alaska, CDMA was only available in Anchorage and Palmer prior
to this year (it was also available in Juneau, but I said *mainland*
Alaska).

Dobson Cellular One's GSM network did indeed start in 2004, and became
usable by 2005. I was unable to find any location covered by TDMA that
was not also covered by GSM.

In 2006, there was a substantial increase in both the GSM networks. I had
solid GSM reception throughout the entire Glenn Highway and in all of
Anchorage. GSM still fades out in Copper Center on the Richardson
Highway, but that's because it's in a bowl that shadows the town and
there's no cell tower down there.

Also in 2006 was a significant expansion of CDMA coverage. For the very
first time, I found no area that had analog coverage that did not also
have CDMA coverage. In 2005, there was no CDMA in the Copper River
Valley; in 2006, CDMA service in the valley rivalled GSM. I found solid
CDMA receiption through the entire Glenn Highway.

Tok is still GSM and analog only, but the way things are going I expect
Tok to get CDMA shortly.

Prior to 2006, I would not have considered CDMA to be a serious choice for
anyone in Alaska, especially with a digital-only phone. GSM (and, a few
years earlier, TDMA) was THE choice if you wanted digital service outside
of urban Anchorage.

Now, GSM and CDMA are neck-and-neck in Alaska. There are probably still a
few places where you may need analog -- e.g., Barrow, McCarthy, etc. --
but Alaska is going digital just as the rest of the world.

In northern Canada, CDMA is the ONLY choice. There is no GSM service
north of Fort St. John on the Alaska Highway until you reach Tok. As of
last July, Latitude Wireless did not have roaming agreements with US
carriers so even though your Verizon phone would roam there, you couldn't
make or receive calls. However, a Telus Mobility (Canadian CDMA carrier)
phone worked fine.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

Mark Crispin wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006, SMS wrote:

> In mainland Alaska, CDMA was only available in Anchorage and Palmer
> prior to this year (it was also available in Juneau, but I said
> *mainland* Alaska).

I was in Alaska in 2003. I used my Verizon CDMA/AMPS phone on CDMA in
Seward, Fairbanks, Anchorage, and the tourist area near Denali (I forget
the name of the town). In Talkeetna, and along most of the Alaskan
Railroad, the phone worked on AMPS, but the people with TDMA phones also
had to use AMPS (except in Talkeetna where there was TDMA), as the train
traveled in areas that were outside the range of digital from the cities.

The tourists with GSM and iDEN phones had no service at all in Alaska,
and were quite upset about it.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, SMS wrote:
> I was in Alaska in 2003. I used my Verizon CDMA/AMPS phone on CDMA in Seward,
> Fairbanks, Anchorage, and the tourist area near Denali (I forget the name of
> the town).

In 2003, that was the limit of the CDMA network.

> In Talkeetna, and along most of the Alaskan Railroad, the phone
> worked on AMPS, but the people with TDMA phones also had to use AMPS (except
> in Talkeetna where there was TDMA), as the train traveled in areas that were
> outside the range of digital from the cities.

The Alaska railroad more or less follows the line of the George Parks
Highway, which is not covered much by any cellular.

> The tourists with GSM and iDEN phones had no service at all in Alaska, and
> were quite upset about it.

That is not surprising, since GSM wasn't switched on until a year later,
and didn't become really usable until 2005.

Things have changed quite a bit in Alaska in three years. 2005 was the
big expansion of the GSM network, and 2006 was the big expansion of the
CDMA network.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Mark Crispin wrote:

> The Alaska railroad more or less follows the line of the George Parks
> Highway, which is not covered much by any cellular.

I had AMPS coverage for much of the train trip between Anchorage and
Fairbanks, but I had to eventually turn off the phone because the train
was so slow and the AMPS coverage was draining the battery.

The only place where I had a big period of no service was inside Denali.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, SMS wrote:
>> The Alaska railroad more or less follows the line of the George Parks
>> Highway, which is not covered much by any cellular.
> I had AMPS coverage for much of the train trip between Anchorage and
> Fairbanks, but I had to eventually turn off the phone because the train was
> so slow and the AMPS coverage was draining the battery.

And this contradicts what I said in what way?

Did you try placing a call? AMPS can be picked up a long way from the
tower. That doesn't mean that the tower can pick up your handheld.

The same tower broadcasting the AMPS signal that your phone (barely) hears
is also broadcasting digital (GSM and/or CMDA, possibly TDMA too). It's
just that the phone can recognize a fainter and noisier AMPS signal than
it can digital.

I found many places in Alaska where I picked up an unusable AMPS signal.
However, there were only a few places in which there was a usable AMPS
signal but not a digital signal. McCarthy was AMPS only the last time I
was there, but now that Copper Valley Wireless has gone CDMA that's
probably changed by now.

> The only place where I had a big period of no service was inside Denali.

Again, try placing a call in those areas along the railroad which seem to
be AMPS-only.

I would definitely recommend disabling AMPS while in Alaska, simply
because there are so many no-service zones. Otherwise, your phone will be
transmitting AMPS at full power trying to get the attention of a tower
that it can hear but which won't hear your phone. If you're in a village
and there's no service, then try turning on AMPS.

I personally found AMPS capability to be useless in Alaska and the Yukon
these days. If need phone service in an area where there isn't a good
digital signal, I'll use a satellite phone.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

gsm is being replaced by CDMA. A form of CDMA that uses a Wider
band of frequency than normal CDMA, but still a form of CDMA, similar to
the way gsm is a form of tdma.