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  1. #1
    John Navas
    Guest
    Wireless providers' switch from analog to digital leaves many OnStar,
    security customers disconnected
    <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    The network that launched the U.S. wireless industry with brick-size
    -- and brick-heavy -- cellphones 24 years ago will switch off in most
    of the country next year, leaving a surprising number of users in the
    lurch.

    ...

    Verizon Wireless, AT&T Inc. and Alltel Corp. are the largest carriers
    that still have analog networks. Alltel will take more time than
    Verizon and AT&T to close its network, shutting down in three stages
    ending in September.

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas <http:/navasgroup.com>

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
    "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
    than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]



    See More: NEWS: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)




  2. #2
    Joel Koltner
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>


    Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    quite slim.





  3. #3
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    Joel Koltner wrote:
    > "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    >
    > Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    > units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    > it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    > lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    > Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    > of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    > quite slim.


    Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
    after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
    have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
    their coverage.

    The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
    will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
    expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
    in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.

    According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
    discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
    lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
    showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
    analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
    throughout an affected CGSA."

    If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
    Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
    will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
    the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
    the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage, but
    somehow I think that the FCC has no intention of enforcing its own
    rules. Unless someone is out there documenting all the AMPS only areas,
    how would anyone challenge the carriers with not abiding by the FCC
    rules? The carrier would simply have to say, 'no, we never had any
    coverage in xyz area.'

    Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
    their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
    This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
    install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.

    The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
    the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
    sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. It's
    possible that the urban carriers that also have AMPS networks in rural
    settings will just quietly leave the rural portions turned on in order
    to remain in compliance with the FCC rules, but they understandably
    don't want to get into the position of saying which AMPS areas will
    remain on and which will be turned off.



  4. #4
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:29:08 -0800, SMS ??? ?
    <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >Joel Koltner wrote:
    >> "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> <http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-onstar_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.2a4dbb8.html>

    >>
    >> Interesting article... surprising that it's "impossible" to upgrade OnStar
    >> units from analog to digital, though -- clearly it has to just be a matter of
    >> it not being cost effective or something, but that seems odd given that the
    >> lady who complained received a $500 coupon towards a new card... hmm...
    >> Granted, I suppose that a $500 coupon is really only "worth" a small fraction
    >> of that amount since the likelihood she'd be able to use it (or sell it) is
    >> quite slim.

    >
    >Actually most rural AMPS (Analog) networks will remain operational even
    >after the FCC AMPS mandate expires. The operators of the rural networks
    >have already stated this. They have no incentive to drastically reduce
    >their coverage.


    False. They'll reuse the spectrum for far more profitable digital
    roaming.

    >The large carriers that have AMPS networks (AT&T, Verizon, and Alltel)
    >will turn off most or all of their AMPS networks soon after the mandate
    >expires. However per FCC rules, they are forbidden from turning off AMPS
    >in areas where doing so will result in any loss of wireless coverage.


    False. There is no such requirement.

    >According to the FCC website, "Cellular licensees that intend to
    >discontinue analog service after February 18, 2008 are permitted, in
    >lieu of making a revised Cellular Geographic Service Area (CGSA)
    >showing, to file a certification stating that the discontinuance of
    >analog service will not result in any loss of wireless coverage
    >throughout an affected CGSA."


    The key word there is "permitted".

    >If the FCC actually enforces their own rules (doubtful under a
    >Republican administration), this virtually guarantees that AMPS service
    >will remain available in areas where the digital coverage is less than
    >the AMPS coverage. Personally I could tell the FCC many areas even in
    >the San Francisco Bay Area where there is only AMPS coverage,


    False. As shown by carriers own coverage maps.

    >Operators of small rural cellular networks have already indicated that
    >their AMPS networks will remain intact "for the foreseeable future."
    >This is because it would cost them a considerable amount of money to
    >install enough digital towers to duplicate their analog coverage.


    False. Fake quote made up by you.

    >The real question is whether Verizon, AT&T, and Alltel will comply with
    >the FCC rules and keep AMPS up and running in areas where there are not
    >sufficient digital towers to provide equivalent coverage to AMPS. ...


    There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    be shut down completely.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  5. #5
    DTC
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    John Navas wrote:
    > There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    > be shut down completely.


    Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.

    BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    few years.




  6. #6
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    DTC wrote:

    > Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    > in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    > to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    > will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.


    In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
    is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
    down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
    mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
    being shut down.

    > BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    > few years.


    The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
    going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
    AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
    people like me that often travel into those areas.



  7. #7
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:48:56 -0800, SMS ??? ?
    <[email protected]> wrote in
    <[email protected]>:

    >DTC wrote:


    >> BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    >> few years.

    >
    >The rural carriers appear to have installed all the towers that they're
    >going to install. According to the statements from the rural carriers,
    >AMPS is going to be around for a very long time. That's good news for
    >people like me that often travel into those areas.


    In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  8. #8
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    DTC wrote:
    > John Navas wrote:
    >> There is no real question. They've already made it clear that AMPS will
    >> be shut down completely.

    >
    > Considering how large of remaining analog foot print Verizon has
    > in Texas ("As shown by carriers own coverage maps." - Navas), its hard
    > to imagine them turning up digital service in less than a year. Analog
    > will indeed fade away, but not next year or even the year after perhaps.
    >
    > BTW, the analog foot print appears to have been static for the past
    > few years.


    I added the facts about the end of the AMPS mandate to
    "http://prepaiduswireless.com/". With a hyperlink near the top of the
    page to that section.



  9. #9
    clifto
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    SMS ???? ? wrote:
    > In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
    > is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
    > down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
    > mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
    > being shut down.


    Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut down
    AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it disabled.

    --
    Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
    Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
    as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.



  10. #10
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.
    >
    > --
    > Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    > John Navas

    <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
    >
    >


    That's odd. There were ONLY 11 responses about AMPS sunset sent to the
    FCC. The big guns Verizon, Alltel, ATT/Cingular, of course, want it off
    to install more digital bandwidth in the cities. But, the comments from
    the rural carriers that responded say differently from your conjecture.

    Plateau Cellular, a rural carrier in Texas and New Mexico gives some
    insight into the situation in the countryside:

    "1. Current State of AMPS
    Plateau currently provides AMPS service to approximately 58% of its
    customer base.
    Approximately 2.8% of such customers use Plateaus analog service
    utilizing bag phones and invehicle
    installations of mobile radios. Specifically, rural farmers utilize AMPS
    bag phones to
    control and monitor center pivot agricultural irrigation systems for
    their farm operations.2 This
    service provides farmers the ability to utilize cellular service at
    greater distances with the higher
    power bag phones compared to a digital handset. It is important for the
    farmers and the farming
    industry that valuable resources such as water, energy, money and time
    are conserved. These
    conservation efforts are promulgated through the use of AMPS controlled
    irrigation systems. In
    addition, Plateau provides roaming service to subscribers of its roaming
    partners whose home
    markets are CDMA. Since there are areas within Plateaus market where no
    CDMA coverage
    exists, those subscribers who have dual mode phones will revert to analog
    service. These
    subscribers use approximately 3.7% of all analog roaming minutes. As 58%
    of Plateaus
    customer base continues to use analog service, Plateau believes such
    service is critical to its
    customers in the rural areas in which it operates and therefore serves
    the public interest.
    While the percentage of bag phone and in-vehicle mobile radio users may
    seem relatively
    small, it represents several hundred customers. Similarly, though the
    percentage of roaming
    minutes used by Plateaus CDMA roaming partners subscribers is small in
    relation to the overall
    magnitude of Plateaus roaming service, Plateau provides several hundred
    thousand minutes per
    month on analog to the roaming public. This is significant for those
    portions of this rural market
    where there is no CDMA coverage or no alternative roaming partners
    available, and it is an
    important factor for nationwide ubiquitous coverage since, without
    Plateaus analog service,
    there would be no roaming alternative."

    With the farming community using AMPS to control irrigation and to have
    RELIABLE AMPS comms across vast areas of the countryside, like in Plateau
    country, I'll bet the old bagphone will still connect to a stable, long-
    range little carrier way past 2010, when your digital only SELLphones are
    all reading NO SERVICE 300 ft from the 500' AMPS towers in the boondocks.

    This is all a scam about maximizing profits in LARGE CITIES with traffic
    overload. Out in Farmtown, USA, traffic isn't a problem, RANGE is. AMPS
    still provides range no 150mw digital toyphone can dream of on a Texas
    ranch. You go try to pull that AMPS from under the dash in the truck on
    that ranch.....you'll find out how much buckshot is in a 12 guage shell!

    Larry
    --
    I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
    My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
    Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?



  11. #11
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wong again)

    clifto <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > SMS ???? ? wrote:
    >> In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where
    >> there is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers
    >> really do shut down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the
    >> FCC rules that mandate that digital coverage be available in the
    >> areas where AMPS is being shut down.

    >
    > Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut
    > down AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it
    > disabled.
    >


    Nope, that's just not true, either. There's an FCC form they must
    complete telling the FCC cutting off AMPS won't effect their customers,
    which would be a lie in rural America, of course. Only 11 responses, so
    far. Only the city big guns are cutting off AMPS. The rural carriers
    are telling FCC a different line than you're getting from the big gun
    fanboys here.

    Read what they say....well, only the part the big boys want you to see,
    anyways.....on:
    http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?
    job=cellular_reports&id=cellular

    Notice how blacked out Verizon's responses are. What are they hiding,
    the truth again??

    Rural carriers wanted nothing to do with digital and its short range in
    the first place. What the hell good is a cellphone that only goes 2
    miles on the open range in Texas? How stupid....


    Larry
    --
    I worked hard under Social Security since I was 12.
    My SS retirement check is one oz of gold per month.
    Can we afford to start any more wars for corporations?



  12. #12
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    clifto wrote:
    > SMS ???? ? wrote:
    >> In California and Florida I've often roamed onto AT&T AMPS where there
    >> is no digital coverage of any kind. If the major carriers really do shut
    >> down _all_ their AMPS then they will be violating the FCC rules that
    >> mandate that digital coverage be available in the areas where AMPS is
    >> being shut down.

    >
    > Tell me more about these rules. I had the impression they could shut down
    > AMPS wherever and whenever they felt the urge, no matter who it disabled.


    See:
    "http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=cellular"

    "Cellular licensees that intend to discontinue analog service after
    February 18, 2008 are permitted, in lieu of making a revised Cellular
    Geographic Service Area (CGSA) showing, to file a certification stating
    that the discontinuance of analog service will not result in any loss of
    wireless coverage throughout an affected CGSA."

    The reality is that no existing carrier that has both AMPS and digital
    could possibly truthfully file such a certification.

    Of course that wouldn't stop a carrier from filing it anyway, as they
    know that enforcement will be non-existent.



  13. #13
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    Larry wrote:
    > John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> In fact they plan to migrate to digital, just like the majors.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    >> John Navas

    > <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>
    >>

    >
    > That's odd. There were ONLY 11 responses about AMPS sunset sent to the
    > FCC. The big guns Verizon, Alltel, ATT/Cingular, of course, want it off
    > to install more digital bandwidth in the cities. But, the comments from
    > the rural carriers that responded say differently from your conjecture.


    <snip>

    The rural carriers have already overlaid digital on their AMPS network.
    They are keeping the AMPS networks operational simply because they can't
    possibly install enough towers to provide equivalent digital coverage.

    I think that the government should have something similar to the REA.
    Maybe the RDA (Rural Digitalization Authority) that helps fund digital
    wireless coverage in rural areas where it is otherwise not cost effective.



  14. #14
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    Larry wrote:

    > Notice how blacked out Verizon's responses are. What are they hiding,
    > the truth again??


    The big question is what the major carriers with AMPS are _really_ going
    to do, not what they are saying publicly.

    Since they're definitely turning off AMPS in urban areas, they can't go
    around saying stuff like, "but we'll leave it on in places where we
    can't cover the same area with digital."

    There's two possibilities:

    1) They have no intention of complying with the FCC rules, and will turn
    off all of their AMPS service even in areas where it results in loss of
    coverage.

    2) They will leave the AMPS network running in areas where they cannot
    provide equivalent digital coverage, but they won't publicly admit what
    they're doing.

    In any case, the subject of this thread is definitely incorrect. Some
    AMPS will be shut down as soon as legally permissible. In terms of
    numbers of subscribers losing urban AMPS coverage, the numbers are
    large. In terms of overall area, the loss of AMPS coverage is a
    relatively small percentage of the total area now covered.

    You can understand why Navas has been lying about this whole thing for
    years. As long as AMPS exists, Verizon will continue to enjoy an
    enormous advantage over his beloved Cingular/AT&T in terms of coverage.
    You can see the results in the latest Consumer Reports survey, where
    AT&T fared so poorly.

    What surprised me was that at the Verizon store the employees actually
    understand what's going on with AMPS. When I was in a store earlier this
    month to replace my wife's phone, they were explaining to an older
    couple about the trade-offs of getting a digital-only phone versus one
    of the two tri-mode phones that they still offer (one was a Samsung and
    one was an LG).



  15. #15
    SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
    Guest

    Re: Rapid shutdown of AMPS within months (Steven Scharf dead wongagain)

    George wrote:

    > I remember when the Internet got opened up. There is an area near here
    > that used to be largely farmland that is now mostly McMansions. It still
    > comes under the the rural subsidies. The local telco got truckloads of
    > money from the taxpayers to put fiber and DSLAMS all over their area so
    > the "farmers" could have broadband. I live in a much more densely
    > populated area and years later we were still on dialup.


    The difference here is that the primary beneficiaries are not the
    residents that live in those areas, but the people passing through. I
    remember going to a small town west of Minneapolis (Hamburg) where I
    could get an AMPS signal outside, but nothing inside a building, and no
    digital at all. While the residents didn't care that much about the lack
    of coverage, it was more important to me as a traveler.



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