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  1. #61
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Fri, 20 May 2005 11:58:42 GMT, [email protected] (Don S) wrote:

    >Typically, the nominal -48Vdc power for the MTSO/CO is provided by a power
    >system that converts AC to DC. The batteries are only used in the event of a
    >power outage. They are connected via busbar so there is no transfer time.
    >Most critical sites also have one or more backup gen-sets to provide power
    >beyond the battery capacity.
    >
    >You also need this in the remote/DLC cabinets and cell sites that may be
    >serving the end user. If the cell site or DLC dies, the end sub has no
    >service, regardless of the condition of the upstream MTSO or CO.


    The problem with wireless sites are connectivity and keeping systems
    within tolerance. If something along the route from the MTSO is
    disrupted, the site is isolated. As far as battery power, if HVAC is
    not continued, the equipment will fail out even if the batteries have
    remaining capacity.

    Some of the sites out here have generator connections and manual
    transfer switches. The batteries float volatile settings, but when the
    power is out, so is the system.

    As an emergency manager, my perennial question to wireless providers -
    especially to those who purport to be "interoperability solutions" is:
    Since the sites have a jack and a manual transfer switch, when a
    technological emergency happens and there is no power, who gets the
    resources??? What guarantee is there that they will support my
    operation and not run with their resources to the "big" city 45 miles
    away?

    From my side of the fence, every site is a critical site, particularly
    when a company is marketing itself to be of service to public safety
    providers.

    Steve



    See More: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?




  2. #62
    DevilsPGD
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial Operator, Can Help Find You?

    In message <[email protected]> "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >Rick Merrill <[email protected]> writes:
    >> You have put your finger(s) on another issue with VoIP: you cannot
    >> place person-to-person NOR collect-calls nor ANY other type of
    >> operator-assisted call. That's one reason costs can stay low.

    >
    >When you are calling for 2cents or less per minute do you really care
    >if you get the wrong person or of the call is collect? The whole idea
    >of operator-assisted calls only made sense when the calls had
    >substantial per minute fees.


    Collect calls will not be billed at 2c/minute, they are billed at the
    operator rate of the dialing telco (IIRC this is regulated in the states
    -- I know for sure that the CRTC regulates the operator or base rate in
    Canada)


    --
    A cheap shot is a terrible thing to waste.



  3. #63
    Garry W
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial Operator, Can Help Find You?

    Tony P. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Which is precisely why I block 411 with my Mitel SMART-1 controller. It
    >just wasn't worth Vonage's buck a pop to get an incorrect listing.


    Just connect it to Infone instead. The regular directory assistance around
    here is pitiful/horrible/usually wrong (I'm thinking especially of Verizon.)

    But Infone is great.

    It's that same buck a pop (well, 89 cents now), but sometimes you're talking
    to an operator who's actually =been= to "that diner on Broadway" you can't
    quite remember the name of (did that), and always you can ask things like "I
    know there's a Target store around here somewhere, but I can't quite find it
    -- can you guide me in?" (been there, done that too.)

    Sign up at www.infone.com, then put 888-411-1111 on your VoIP speed-dial.

    shamelessly shilling,
    Garry



  4. #64
    Garry W
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial Operator, Can Help Find You?

    DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote:
    >In message <[email protected]> "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"
    >>When you are calling for 2cents or less per minute do you really care
    >>if you get the wrong person or of the call is collect?

    >
    >Collect calls will not be billed at 2c/minute, they are billed at the
    >operator rate of the dialing telco


    Wolfgang was talking about =regular= phone calls being "2 cents a minute or
    less".

    Garry



  5. #65
    DevilsPGD
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial Operator, Can Help Find You?

    In message <[email protected]> Garry W
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>In message <[email protected]> "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"
    >>>When you are calling for 2cents or less per minute do you really care
    >>>if you get the wrong person or of the call is collect?

    >>
    >>Collect calls will not be billed at 2c/minute, they are billed at the
    >>operator rate of the dialing telco

    >
    >Wolfgang was talking about =regular= phone calls being "2 cents a minute or
    >less".


    He said "do you really care if you get the wrong person or if the call
    is collect?" -- If you get the wrong person you're out a few cents, no
    big deal.

    If you get a collect call, you're out a fair amount of money, at least a
    hundred minutes of direct dialed calls.



    --
    Q. How many Microsoft technicians does it take to change a lightbulb?
    A. Three. Two to hold the ladder and one to hammer the bulb into a faucet.



  6. #66
    Miguel Cruz
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial Operator, Can Help Find You?

    DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Garry W <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> DevilsPGD <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht"
    >>>> When you are calling for 2cents or less per minute do you really care
    >>>> if you get the wrong person or of the call is collect?
    >>>
    >>> Collect calls will not be billed at 2c/minute, they are billed at the
    >>> operator rate of the dialing telco

    >>
    >> Wolfgang was talking about =regular= phone calls being "2 cents a minute or
    >> less".

    >
    > He said "do you really care if you get the wrong person or if the call
    > is collect?" -- If you get the wrong person you're out a few cents, no
    > big deal.
    >
    > If you get a collect call, you're out a fair amount of money, at least a
    > hundred minutes of direct dialed calls.


    Right, but since phone calls cost 2 cents a minute, who would bother to make
    a collect call (outside of a prison, that is).

    Other than my dad, who has an inexplicable habit of calling me collect from
    airports, I can't think of the last time I've encoutnered one.

    miguel
    --
    Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
    Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan



  7. #67
    Kurt Ullman
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (John R.
    Levine) wrote:
    >>I'm also now wondering who's going to take the hit for hotels when a
    >>tenant plugs their internet phone into the wall jack. The hi-speed
    >>internet service at some hotels requires the tenant to occasionally
    >>re-certify their in-room internet service via an auth code provided by
    >>the front desk when necessary. And it's not always free.

    >
    >I think that if I were the hotel, I would put a sticker on the real
    >phone next to the Ethernet jack saying "in case of emergency, dial 911
    >on this phone."
    >
    >The goal here is to provide working 911 to people who need it. I have
    >never seen a hotel room with an ethernet jack but no phone, and I
    >doubt that anyone else has, either.
    >

    And it would also seem MUCH quicker in an emergency to use the
    land line. I would also be willing to bet that there is a "regular"
    land line (if not a few cell phones) in most of the Internet cafes.
    the VoIP 911 problem would be mainly in home and (and possibly
    businesses).

    ----
    Ideologue: noun. Someone who disagrees with the writer on
    an issue and is insufficiently apologetic about it.
    Stolen from Billo in misc.writing



  8. #68
    Don S
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
    > As far as battery power, if HVAC is
    >not continued, the equipment will fail out even if the batteries have
    >remaining capacity.


    Depends upon location and time of year. Also, some companies are taking a
    serious look at using DC HVAC systems, which will run off of the batteries.

    >Some of the sites out here have generator connections and manual
    >transfer switches.


    This makes sense only in manned locations.

    The batteries float volatile settings, but when the
    >power is out, so is the system.


    Can you elaborate on this ? Nominal float voltage from the DC power system is
    -54Vdc. Wet cell or VRLA battery systems are composed of 24 * 2V cells. For
    those with Low Voltage Disconnect (LVDs), the setting is usually -42Vdc.

    >As an emergency manager, my perennial question to wireless providers -
    >especially to those who purport to be "interoperability solutions" is:
    >Since the sites have a jack and a manual transfer switch, when a
    >technological emergency happens and there is no power, who gets the
    >resources??? What guarantee is there that they will support my
    >operation and not run with their resources to the "big" city 45 miles
    >away?


    The good thing about the wireless network is that there is usually another
    cell site that can provide service, in the event a closer site goes down.



  9. #69
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Sun, 22 May 2005 12:23:41 GMT, [email protected] (Don S) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
    >> As far as battery power, if HVAC is
    >>not continued, the equipment will fail out even if the batteries have
    >>remaining capacity.

    >
    >Depends upon location and time of year. Also, some companies are taking a
    >serious look at using DC HVAC systems, which will run off of the batteries.


    Most of the sites here (I am in a rapidly urbanizing suburb which
    borders on rural areas) are served by sites which have slab-mounted
    enclosures which are weathertight without having a full pre-fab
    housing. These seem to have their own HVAC internally, but do not have
    anything more than the manual transfer switch and generator jack.

    I'm not sure if there are batteries in there, as there doesn't seem to
    be much room. Even if there are, this couldn't run very long given the
    typical powe failure duration in these parts.

    >>Some of the sites out here have generator connections and manual
    >>transfer switches.

    >
    >This makes sense only in manned locations.


    None of these locations are manned. Most of them are in remote
    locations.

    >The batteries float volatile settings, but when the
    >>power is out, so is the system.

    >
    >Can you elaborate on this ?


    I'll do my best. It's been a while since I was in the industry.

    >Nominal float voltage from the DC power system is
    >-54Vdc. Wet cell or VRLA battery systems are composed of 24 * 2V cells. For
    >those with Low Voltage Disconnect (LVDs), the setting is usually -42Vdc.


    In the late 80's/ early 90's I did work in the AMPS cellular industry.
    This was a time when PCS was called "CT2." I understand things have
    changed. Back then, I was with a "B carrier" whose sites mostly AT&T
    equipment which had banks of glass jar batteries along one side of the
    wall. My impression is that these sites were built to remain up for
    several days. One iDEN site I was in had a battery rack that seemed to
    be gel cells which had significantly less capacity. The equipment may
    be more efficient, i.e., more power may be directed toward actual RF
    transmission and not toward signal processing or receiving, but I
    doubt that with the volume of usage that follows during a high-impact
    incident that this site would function very long (perhaps in
    comparison to one with a bank of Exide jars) following power
    disruption.

    >>As an emergency manager, my perennial question to wireless providers -
    >>especially to those who purport to be "interoperability solutions" is:
    >>Since the sites have a jack and a manual transfer switch, when a
    >>technological emergency happens and there is no power, who gets the
    >>resources??? What guarantee is there that they will support my
    >>operation and not run with their resources to the "big" city 45 miles
    >>away?

    >
    >The good thing about the wireless network is that there is usually another
    >cell site that can provide service, in the event a closer site goes down.


    Sure, in most places but not out here. Building redundancy and
    overlapping coverage is not considered in the business model for an
    area such as this. We generally have high-site coverage of Interstates
    and coverage falls off between 3 - 10 miles off the path of the
    highway.

    I have been getting the hard sell for "partnering" with carriers, one
    in particular, to apportion public funds for diverse routing and
    emergency power solutions, as well as development of wireless
    facilities at publicly funded tower-sites for their infrastructure.
    The promise is that "we" can ride on their fortified system. The
    unseen is that their system is making money and there is no discussion
    of revenue sharing up on the table. The danger is that other carriers
    will claim exception and we will be forced to encrust each of the
    public sites with each of the 800 MHz and PCS carriers, which would
    increase wind loading and preclude our own ability to put up antennas
    for our own internal use. But, gee, at least one carrier says if their
    system is fortified I don't need anything else ) LOL!

    Steve



  10. #70
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Sun, 22 May 2005 12:04:04 GMT, [email protected] (Kurt Ullman)
    wrote:

    > And it would also seem MUCH quicker in an emergency to use the
    >land line. I would also be willing to bet that there is a "regular"
    >land line (if not a few cell phones) in most of the Internet cafes.
    >the VoIP 911 problem would be mainly in home and (and possibly
    >businesses).


    While it may be much quicker and has obvious benefits, our stats show
    that people use whatever they are conditioned to use. Our system stats
    indicate about 57% of system-wide 9-1-1 access being wireless (VoIP is
    pointed to a POTS line, so we can't even collect numbers on that). The
    primary PSAP actually is closer to 65% wireless (there are eight PSAPs
    in the system). I've heard from other 9-1-1 coordinators that their
    wireline calls account for only about 32% of total system usage now.

    One of the 9-1-1 coordinators who has a greater disposable income than
    mine brought a new toy to a meeting: a PDA with a wi-fi card and a
    VoIP telephony application. There are some people out there who want
    to make wi-fi VoIP a cellular competitive system.

    Steve



  11. #71
    John Nelson
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    In article <[email protected]>, tiredofspam123
    @comcast.net says...
    > Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I'm also now wondering who's going to take the hit for hotels when a
    > >tenant plugs their internet phone into the wall jack. The hi-speed
    > >internet service at some hotels requires the tenant to occasionally
    > >re-certify their in-room internet service via an auth code provided by
    > >the front desk when necessary. And it's not always free.

    >
    > So what? The technical issues of mapping a hotel connection to the hotel
    > and room number are trivial compared to, say, determining a cell phone's
    > location.


    First of all, the notion that the location of a cell phone caller can be
    determined quickly and reliably (without the use of GPS enabled
    handsets) is a MYTH. Yes, triangulation can narrow down the general
    vicinity (depending greatly on the density of sites within the area) but
    that's a far cry from "1234 Main Street, Apt. 3-G". So let us set aside
    the argument that cell phones provide E911 functionality. Clearly, they
    do not.

    > Internet cafes, libraries, and all sorts of public access points
    > will have the same issue. I guess they'll either have to figure it out or
    > quit providing VoIP to those locations.


    Or... the FCC could adopt a realistic position with respect to the
    technical issues involved in providing E911 services via VOIP.

    > VoIP providers got into the business of providing public telephone service,
    > but they didn't bother providing the whole package and you see the results.
    > It's easy to undercut the other guys when you're allowed to skip the hard
    > parts.


    It is not that simple. Access to the PSAPs is available ONLY via the
    ILEC's. Heretofore, those companies have made it virtually impossible
    for most VOIP providers to gain that access. If the FCC is serious about
    having the VOIP providers deliver E911, they are going to have to ensure
    that the playing field is level.



  12. #72
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Sun, 22 May 2005 10:38:58 -0700, John Nelson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >It is not that simple. Access to the PSAPs is available ONLY via the
    >ILEC's. Heretofore, those companies have made it virtually impossible
    >for most VOIP providers to gain that access. If the FCC is serious about
    >having the VOIP providers deliver E911, they are going to have to ensure
    >that the playing field is level.


    The 9-1-1 "industry" and the regulatory environment that 9-1-1 exists
    in is a nasty business where there are constantly ways of finding
    nickles and dimes for business partnerships which are transparent to
    PSAPs. It's also hung together like Post-it notes layered on top of
    each other. Technology which was put aside in the 70's for telephony
    (enhanced MF, like the tones at the end of Pink Floyd's "Young Lust")
    is still widely used in 9-1-1. That's layered on top of database
    providers, which is layered on top of other database providers, which
    is layered on top of... and so on... and so on... . I'd rather see
    innovation, but one that moves in an all digital direction which
    provides end-to-end digital. ILECs see this as a threat because in a
    completely digital environment, they are less necessary (if at all).

    In one situation, an ILEC which we retain for selective routing and
    database services proposed a tariff for wireless services that would
    charge US (the 9-1-1 system... in my case, I operate six primary
    PSAPs, one secondary and one disaster recovery) for each wireless
    Phase 1 or Phase 2 9-1-1 call we receive. We are not cost-recovered.
    We would - hypothetically - have to either fund 9-1-1 from the general
    revenue fund, or take the impolitic course of turning off all wireless
    access and make 9-1-1 a service provided to taxpayers. Either way, we
    lose. The Commission has done NOTHING to aid the several states which
    could not develop cost recovery mechanisms, yet the carriers charge a
    "Federal Universal Access" fee which, when you pin them down, is
    ostensibly for "complying" with 9-1-1 mandates, which in some cases is
    not being offered in that area, which some carriers will refuse to
    comply with locally until they get their cut from other funding
    sources.

    Despite these issues, the public sector end of this is constantly
    forced to live up to a perceived standard of care that is established
    by external factors, such as marketing.

    I concur that the playing field has to be narrowed to a common
    denominator, however, the FCC is as much a political animal as local
    legislatures are. I don't see anything meaningful coming from the
    Commission other than another unfunded mandate that is ultimately
    passed on to us local 9-1-1 systems.

    Steve



  13. #73
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Sun, 22 May 2005 10:38:58 -0700, John Nelson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >First of all, the notion that the location of a cell phone caller can be
    >determined quickly and reliably (without the use of GPS enabled
    >handsets) is a MYTH.


    Even WITH GPS, there are severe limitations to cellular ALI. One that
    is consistantly ignored is the location of an iindividual inside a
    shopping mall or highrise building where there is attenuation of
    signal preventing the use of the GPS constellation. Or, for that
    matter a situation which requires a Z coordinate.

    >Yes, triangulation can narrow down the general
    >vicinity (depending greatly on the density of sites within the area) but
    >that's a far cry from "1234 Main Street, Apt. 3-G". So let us set aside
    >the argument that cell phones provide E911 functionality. Clearly, they
    >do not.


    Agreed. The figure of accuracy was another ambitious goal from the FCC
    where the technology was not quite as reliable as the lawyers expected
    (just like the migration of land mobile services to 6.25 kHz occupied
    bandwidth when they aren't even ready to go to 12.5 kHz). Perhaps they
    should have asked the one or two engineers in their organization that
    have not attritioned out just yet. Positioning by means of RF can be
    slewed by a number of factors no one has control over, such as
    multipath in an urban environment, propagation over large bodies of
    water, ground conductivity, relative humidity, etc.

    I sell the idea by the notion of "aiming low." When the lofty goals
    are set aside, knowing "something" about where a caller is located is
    better than knowing "nothing."

    Now, all I and other 9-1-1 coordinators who are not fortunate to be
    leaders in the field working in well-funded/ high profile environments
    need (besides a better regulatory environment and politicians who take
    9-1-1 more seriously) is more than one site in our outlying wireless
    coverage so that there can be another point to triangulate from.

    Steve



  14. #74
    John Nelson
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    says...

    > Despite these issues, the public sector end of this is constantly
    > forced to live up to a perceived standard of care that is established
    > by external factors, such as marketing.


    > I concur that the playing field has to be narrowed to a common
    > denominator, however, the FCC is as much a political animal as local
    > legislatures are.


    And as such, they are subject to the "influences" present in the
    political process. For the FCC this means telco lobbyists, and the
    politicians who have been bought and paid for by the telco's (ILEC's).

    > I don't see anything meaningful coming from the
    > Commission other than another unfunded mandate that is ultimately
    > passed on to us local 9-1-1 systems.


    I disagree. For the hundreds of start-up VOIP providers who will NOT be
    able to gain the mandated access, the implications are meaningful
    indeed.



  15. #75
    Steve & Susan
    Guest

    Re: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

    On Sun, 22 May 2005 12:26:13 -0700, John Nelson
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >says...
    >> I don't see anything meaningful coming from the
    >> Commission other than another unfunded mandate that is ultimately
    >> passed on to us local 9-1-1 systems.

    >
    >I disagree. For the hundreds of start-up VOIP providers who will NOT be
    >able to gain the mandated access, the implications are meaningful
    >indeed.


    Yes, this is of consequence to the VoIP providers. But the competitive
    telephone industry is so fluid that it seems to run in cycles. Back in
    the CLEC craze of about 1999 - 2000, we were barraged with
    interconnection agreements (we require a contractual relationship to
    send into the selective router). Nearly all of these have gone
    bankrupt simply due to the competitive nature of their own industry.
    Only a few remain.

    We'll see how this endures - and what will happen once the ILECs feel
    that piping broadband into everyone's home and replacing tip and ring
    with a line-powered modem and POTS interface better meets long term
    business. If that ever comes to fruition I've got to wonder what will
    come of the smaller VoIP companies.

    Don't get me wrong - I do appreciate the requirement to provide ANI/
    ALI information, however Congress should have assessed the impact to
    local governments in certain operating situations prior to turning
    loose another free rider.

    Steve



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