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  1. #376
    Jerome Zelinske
    Guest

    Re: mobile network design, was Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    But to do that someone would have to buy a wireless phone and sign up
    for wireless service, or get pre paid.
    Whether I call from a land line or wireless, it would still cost more
    to call a wireless phone than a land line phone there.



    See More: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?




  2. #377
    Osmo R
    Guest

    Re: mobile network design, was Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Jerome Zelinske wrote:
    > But to do that someone would have to buy a wireless phone and sign
    > up for wireless service, or get pre paid.
    > Whether I call from a land line or wireless, it would still cost
    > more to call a wireless phone than a land line phone there.


    Where? Since you do not quote the message you are replying one can only
    guess. In Finland it does not cost more to call a mobile phone than a
    landline if one uses a mobile phone. (with just one exception IIRC)

    Osmo



  3. #378
    Osmo R
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Steve Sobol wrote:
    > Osmo R wrote:
    >
    >> And just how many of those studies have studied the situation in Finland?

    >
    >
    > *smack*
    >
    > Probably none. Why do you insist things must be the same in other
    > countries as in Finland? Give it a rest.


    I am not. Thiose who say that CPP always leads to higher prices are.

    Osmo



  4. #379
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Osmo R wrote:
    > Steve Sobol wrote:
    >> Osmo R wrote:
    >>
    >>> And just how many of those studies have studied the situation in
    >>> Finland?

    >>
    >>
    >> *smack*
    >>
    >> Probably none. Why do you insist things must be the same in other
    >> countries as in Finland? Give it a rest.

    >
    > I am not. Thiose who say that CPP always leads to higher prices are.


    That's because they're right.

    Ivor





  5. #380
    chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
    > <[email protected]> wrote in
    >
    > > Fair enough, but it's not as if Osmo's calling pattern is that unusual.
    > > There's a good reason that offpeak kicks in at 6, 7 or 9pm of whatever
    > > it is in someone's local market. Most people want or need to make calls
    > > in peak time- that's why it's more expensive to call then. The companies
    > > don't give their customers 'free' offpeak minutes because they like
    > > them.

    >
    > Some GSM carriers in some areas of the U.S. are very capacity constrained,
    > and try to encourage less peak use, and more off-peak use. The business
    > customers that are paying for thousands of peak minutes per month, do not
    > want dropped calls, or "system busy, please try later" messages.


    Sure, but it's not just the GSM carriers which have these peak
    restrictions. All the major companies appear to encourage more off-peak
    use.

    --
    David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
    usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk



  6. #381
    Jerome Zelinske
    Guest

    Re: mobile network design, was Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Well, let's see. My message was directly threaded under yours. So
    what message do you think I would be replying to? I said "Whether I
    call from a land line or wireless". I am talking about me, here. With
    "it would still cost more to call a wireless phone than a land line
    phone there", I was replying to you but also meant anywhere in europe.
    There, is that guessless enough for you? So your "when one can call
    from a mobile" does not apply to everyone.
    Your wireless providers are unfairly, if not illegally, charging your
    local land line and international calls more than local wireless calls.
    If there isn't an international fair trade practices commission, there
    should be.



  7. #382
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?


    "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:1gxj6dd.2g8nymxuhs0N%[email protected]
    > Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in
    > >
    > > > Fair enough, but it's not as if Osmo's calling pattern is that

    unusual.
    > > > There's a good reason that offpeak kicks in at 6, 7 or 9pm of whatever
    > > > it is in someone's local market. Most people want or need to make

    calls
    > > > in peak time- that's why it's more expensive to call then. The

    companies
    > > > don't give their customers 'free' offpeak minutes because they like
    > > > them.

    > >
    > > Some GSM carriers in some areas of the U.S. are very capacity

    constrained,
    > > and try to encourage less peak use, and more off-peak use. The business
    > > customers that are paying for thousands of peak minutes per month, do

    not
    > > want dropped calls, or "system busy, please try later" messages.

    >
    > Sure, but it's not just the GSM carriers which have these peak
    > restrictions. All the major companies appear to encourage more off-peak
    > use.


    The other companies have to do it to be competitive. But at least in the
    U.S., the CDMA carriers do not have the capacity issues that the GSM and
    TDMA carriers are suffering with. The carriers get a lot less spectrum in
    the U.S. than in Europe, and they must use the same bandwidth for both voice
    and data, sonething that AT&T Wireless was struggling greatly with.

    A big battle is now brewing in India, where the CDMA carriers are going to
    be able to provide 3G data services that the GSM carriers have no bandwidth
    for.

    Eventually, everything will be CDMA, of one form or another, but that is a
    ways off.






  8. #383
    Steven M. Scharf
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?


    "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > >> Probably none. Why do you insist things must be the same in other
    > >> countries as in Finland? Give it a rest.

    > >
    > > I am not. Thiose who say that CPP always leads to higher prices are.

    >
    > That's because they're right.
    >
    > Ivor


    Finland is an anomaly in wireless, for reasons that we are all well aware
    of.





  9. #384
    chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco"
    > <[email protected]> wrote in
    >
    > > I'm not without my criticisms of the UK mobile market, but I've not seen
    > > anything here which makes me think it's the 'caller pays' system which
    > > contributes to it.

    >
    > The competive environment is about the same between the U.S. and U.K., with
    > four major carriers. The prices are largely set by the premier carrier,
    > Verizon, with the other three carriers trying to offer better deals in
    > terms of included minutes, or features such as rollover minutes (Cingular),
    > automatic tier pricing (Sprint), or huge numbers of included minutes
    > (T-Mobile).


    I don't agree with you that you have a similar competitive environment.
    In the UK, you have 4 companies who have similar numbers of subscribers
    (they're each with a few percentage points of each other) and very
    similar coverage areas. People do like to debate that on u.t.m, but they
    are very similar when compared to US carriers! They all operate on the
    same technology (forget 'three' for a moment) (e.g.- leave one company,
    your phone will work on another once you unlock it for a small fee.)

    > What makes the MPP (Mobile Party Pays) more competitive is that the prices
    > are transparent. All the studies of European pricing conclude this.


    I pay 10 pence per minute (plus a 3p set up charge) to call a mobile, at
    weekends this is 3 pence a minute. It's perfectly transparent to me.
    It's also perfectly clear that there are a huge number of _different_
    prices I could pay with other providers, but all that happens is the
    burden shifts slightly. That is, in the US, the caller will not
    differentiate between how much they pay to a 'cell phone' or a
    'landline' but they may have other considerations- is the number in
    their 'local' calling area, and if not, how much are they paying? Living
    in the US for 11 years, I can't say the pricing is any more transparent-
    there is a massive amount of variation. Of course, when in the US, I use
    very cheap providers, and know how much I'm paying (as I do in the UK)
    but not everyone does.

    > "The crucial issue from the point of competition policy (as Oftel the UK
    > regulator emphasises) is that there are no market forces working to bring
    > the termination charge (around 20p) down. This is because the person
    > receiving the call does not pay for it even though he or she chooses the
    > network that levies the termination charge."


    Sure there are market forces operating. If you call mobiles a lot,
    you'll use a low cost provider like 1899, or you'll get a mobile
    contract like Three's 750 minutes a month.

    Market forces also mean that people will make long calls from their
    landlines or mobile to other landlines, or to on network mobiles. You
    can call any UK landline for an unlimited time at _any_ time of the day
    for 3p.

    > There have been studies in the U.S., as carriers wanted to provide a caller
    > pays option, but without any FCC regulation on termination charges. The FCC
    > was willing to allow caller pays, but only if it could regulate the
    > termination charges. So the whole thing went nowhere.
    >
    > You've already seen that the UK wireless carriers will charge excessive
    > termination charges in the abscence of government regulation, and even now
    > these charges remain very high.
    >
    > Here are some more papers on the issue:
    >
    > http://www.c-t-u.org/HNI/P.%20CTU%20...%20%20TSTT.ppt (see page 22)
    >
    > http://www.itu.int/osg/spu/presentat...Aug,%20FMI.PPT (see page
    > 7)
    >
    >
    > The conclusion is always the same. Caller pays causes a failure in market
    > pricing. Just because you choose not to see it, does not change the reality
    > that it is happening.


    I do appreciate you finding these presentations, and they are persuasive
    for the case they make. However, it still doesn't answer my question as
    to how people arrive at the prices people pay for calls, whether you
    include calls _to_ mobiles, as well as calls from them.

    --
    David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
    usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk



  10. #385
    Osmo R
    Guest

    Re: mobile network design, was Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Jerome Zelinske wrote:
    > Well, let's see. My message was directly threaded under yours. So
    > what message do you think I would be replying to?


    You cannot make such assumptions on the order of the messages on my system.

    > I said "Whether I call from a land line or wireless". I am talking
    > about me, here. With "it would still cost more to call a wireless
    > phone than a land line phone there", I was replying to you but also
    > meant anywhere in europe. There, is that guessless enough for you?
    > So your "when one can call from a mobile" does not apply to everyone.
    > Your wireless providers are unfairly, if not illegally, charging
    > your local land line and international calls more than local wireless
    > calls. If there isn't an international fair trade practices
    > commission, there should be.


    Just how would it be illegal. Here the we have a freedom to make any
    from of contracts unless they are banned by law. There is a strong
    customer demand for plans that have same cost to all phones. Providing
    them is neither unfair nor illegal. As for international calls in them
    the cost is based on two components: the local network fee or mobile
    call fee (depending on whether you call from a landline or mobile phone)
    and the foreign call fee. These are independent of each other and you
    can freely choose the international operator. The separation between the
    local mobile fee and the international fee also means that it will cost
    more to call a foreign mobile than a landline.

    Osmo




















  11. #386
    Miguel Cruz
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I don't agree with you that you have a similar competitive environment.
    > In the UK, you have 4 companies who have similar numbers of subscribers
    > (they're each with a few percentage points of each other) and very
    > similar coverage areas. People do like to debate that on u.t.m, but they
    > are very similar when compared to US carriers! They all operate on the
    > same technology (forget 'three' for a moment) (e.g.- leave one company,
    > your phone will work on another once you unlock it for a small fee.)


    Can you keep your number, or do you have to reprint all your stationery and
    alert everyone you know about the change?

    miguel
    --
    Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
    Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan



  12. #387
    chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco

    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > I don't agree with you that you have a similar competitive environment.
    > > In the UK, you have 4 companies who have similar numbers of subscribers
    > > (they're each with a few percentage points of each other) and very
    > > similar coverage areas. People do like to debate that on u.t.m, but they
    > > are very similar when compared to US carriers! They all operate on the
    > > same technology (forget 'three' for a moment) (e.g.- leave one company,
    > > your phone will work on another once you unlock it for a small fee.)

    >
    > Can you keep your number, or do you have to reprint all your stationery and
    > alert everyone you know about the change?


    Of course. I last ported my number in early 2002, and number portability
    has been around in the UK a good while longer than in the US.

    --
    David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
    usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk



  13. #388
    Ivor Jones
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Steven M. Scharf wrote:
    > "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>>> Probably none. Why do you insist things must be the same in other
    >>>> countries as in Finland? Give it a rest.
    >>>
    >>> I am not. Thiose who say that CPP always leads to higher prices
    >>> are.

    >>
    >> That's because they're right.
    >>
    >> Ivor

    >
    > Finland is an anomaly in wireless, for reasons that we are all well
    > aware of.


    They did come up with the Nokia 6310i though, for which I will be
    eternally grateful. Best phone I've ever had.

    Ivor





  14. #389
    Jerome Zelinske
    Guest

    Re: mobile network design, was Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Then your news reader is as flawed as your wireless system.
    "There is a strong customer demand for plans that have same cost to all
    phones", then why don't they. Why are calls from european land lines
    and from international phones to european wireless phones more expensive
    than calls to european land line phones?
    Who my local wireless carrier is and whether I am using one of it's
    international plans or a calling card has no effect on my cost to call a
    foreign mobile being higher than to a land line. It is the foreign
    mobile operator's charge that is making the call more expensive.



  15. #390
    Osmo R
    Guest

    Re: Advice for calling US Mobile Phone?

    Steven M. Scharf wrote:
    > "Ivor Jones" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>>> Probably none. Why do you insist things must be the same in
    >>>> other countries as in Finland? Give it a rest.
    >>>
    >>> I am not. Thiose who say that CPP always leads to higher prices
    >>> are.

    >>
    >> That's because they're right.
    >>
    >> Ivor

    >
    >
    > Finland is an anomaly in wireless, for reasons that we are all well
    > aware of.
    >
    >


    So which is it? Does CPP always lead to high prices or is Finland an
    exception? And if Finland is an exception, what could be the reason for it?

    Osmo



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