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  1. #46
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
    >suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
    >suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.


    I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    35 miles.

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



    See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones




  2. #47
    Isaiah Beard
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas wrote:
    > [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
    >
    > In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:41:18 -0400,
    > Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
    >>out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
    >>GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
    >>by broadband ISPs.



    > In a word, WiMAX.



    That word does not answer my question, but thanks for trying anyway.

    --
    E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
    Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.



  3. #48
    David S
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:19:24 -0400, "jfitz" <[email protected]> chose to
    add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >"Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> The problem is really not one of analog vs. digital but rather very low
    >> power & no antenna vs. high power & good antenna. The only reason that
    >> this
    >> problem exists is that the wireless carriers only care about the 99% who
    >> live and work in cities & towns (where the wireless executives live and
    >> work) and could care less about folks who live and work in the boonies.

    >
    >So the "99%" should subsidize the tremendous cost of building cell towers
    >for those who have CHOSEN to live in the boonies?


    You mean those who have CHOSEN to work their asses off to produce the food
    you eat in your city? And those who have CHOSEN to cut down the trees to
    provide the lumber for your house and the pulp for the newspaper you read?
    And those who have CHOSEN to mine the metals that your car/bus/train are
    made of and the coal that lights your city? And those who have CHOSEN to
    move all that stuff to your city?

    Or don't those people deserve to have cellular service just as good as
    yours?

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "STOP: DRIVE SIDEWAYS" - detour sign in Kyushi, Japan




  4. #49
    George
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    David S wrote:

    >>So the "99%" should subsidize the tremendous cost of building cell towers
    >>for those who have CHOSEN to live in the boonies?

    >
    >
    > You mean those who have CHOSEN to work their asses off to produce the food
    > you eat in your city? And those who have CHOSEN to cut down the trees to
    > provide the lumber for your house and the pulp for the newspaper you read?
    > And those who have CHOSEN to mine the metals that your car/bus/train are
    > made of and the coal that lights your city? And those who have CHOSEN to
    > move all that stuff to your city?
    >


    But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
    made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
    electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
    farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
    developments.



    > Or don't those people deserve to have cellular service just as good as
    > yours?
    >




  5. #50
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:26:54 GMT, CellGuy <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.

    >
    >CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.


    No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



  6. #51
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:58:49 -0400,
    Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas wrote:
    >>
    >> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:41:18 -0400,
    >> Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
    >>>out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
    >>>GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
    >>>by broadband ISPs.

    >
    >> In a word, WiMAX.

    >
    >That word does not answer my question, ...


    Suit yourself.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  7. #52
    Jer
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    Isaiah Beard wrote:

    > What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
    > out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
    > GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
    > by broadband ISPs. Data services are typically sold at a premium, and
    > one would think that at least some people living in these areas might be
    > interested in broadband enough to take a "fixed wireless" solution from
    > a cell carrier in lieu of nonexistent DSL or cable in these parts.
    > People paying such a premium to get reliable data would better justify
    > the cost of the building than just selling the voice service alone.



    It is my impression that some carriers may be more tuned to their client
    base then some give them credit for. My own relatives living and
    working in the boonies couldn't care less about anything other than what
    they've got now - AMPS - it works for what they need it for and that's
    that. Visiting them for for suppers has offered opportunities to
    discuss this issue at length, and I can't say they're wrong with their
    perspective. They honestly don't give a rat's ass about internet stuff,
    voice mail, etc, even conference calling isn't on their list of
    necessities. By the time they've finished their days work in the
    fields, it's family time and all else waits until tomorrow, or next week
    - even analog B&W TV suits one uncle of mine, until the sun sets and
    bang! it's bedtime - 4am is time for coffee and the cows.

    Okay, this is on the extreme end of the stick, but it may surprise some
    that this type of person still exists in a number of rural areas (8 mi.
    SW of Vernon, TX), and their particular skew on life is like another
    planet compared to today's urban lifestyles. The only time my uncle has
    seen more than five cars on Vernon's main street together was during a
    parade. Their idea of a big city is Wichita Falls that has those ugly
    skyscrapers. "GPRS? Wot'n tarnayshun is dat?" I told him... and
    then... "wot wud I do widdat?" The internet Pops. "Innernet and dat
    computerin stuff is fer fokes dat ain't got nuff to do".

    They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
    anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
    like them. So, how would any provider expect to sell anything other
    than the most basic services to these people? Answer? They're not, so
    spending the first dime for more just isn't going to happen for a while
    yet. Fortunately, their wireless service comes from Vernon, well within
    range of digital, so a new cell phone *is* in the cards.


    --
    jer
    email reply - I am not a 'ten'



  8. #53
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
    >>suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
    >>suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.

    >
    >I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    >35 miles.


    <http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:

    ...
    The theoretical limit of CDMA is set by a key signal-processing chip
    in the base-station which has the job of searching incoming signals
    for codes from the surrounding handsets. Radio signals take a finite
    time to travel distance, and so there's always a round-trip delay in
    signals reaching handsets and returning to the base-station.

    The expected maximum delay is known as the 'search-window', and the
    chip is programmed to search only during this time for the individual
    handset codes. The less time the signal processor spends searching,
    the better, because it has other things to do in processing the
    codes.

    In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate. But not for
    Australia where AMPS must disappear.

    What Nortel (the Telstra contractor) proposes to do here is to add
    extra chips (up to three) in their base-stations, each designed to
    hunt for incoming codes in a series of delayed search-windows. They
    hope, therefore, to have base-stations which can handle signals from
    transmitters up to 200 kilometres away.

    So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    ...

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  9. #54
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:41:11
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:26:54 GMT, CellGuy <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.

    >>
    >>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.

    >
    >No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    >I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    >http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    >table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    >currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).


    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. Recent
    field trials with Telstra in Australia have achieved coverage in excess of 120
    kilometers on land and 130 kilometers for marine service under typical
    conditions, using standard CDMA handsets and car kits.

    [MORE]

    Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell is also deployed in China.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  10. #55
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    Jer <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
    > anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
    > like them.


    Millions like them....even in the cities.

    One thing overlooked here is the POWER the man you describe has. Notice
    his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
    Beirut's? Wonder why that is? HIS congressman only represents 24000
    people in that huge district. Everyone there KNOWS how he votes, too. If
    he votes "wrong", say with Verizon Wireless or some other corporate
    fatcats, well, they'll get EVEN in the next election...Just try them.

    AMPS will be on the air for a long time, whether you technokiddies like it
    or not. I DOES just work better across the land. Those boys driving the
    tractors and feeding your sorry asses know what works...AMPS works for them
    just fine. Change comes slow in the country. It took them YEARS to get
    those tractors off 2-way FM onto IMTS or AMPS.

    --
    Larry



  11. #56
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:OlaHe.6662$p%[email protected]:

    > So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    > recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    > different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    > ...
    >
    >


    What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    the first tree it comes to.

    50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    Cellular propagation isn't magic.

    --
    Larry



  12. #57
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
    [email protected]:

    > But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
    > made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
    > electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
    > farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
    > developments.
    >


    You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.

    Dave is right on with his post.

    (Oh, Large Shrimp is $2/pound, heads-on, coming off the boats...(c

    --
    Larry



  13. #58
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:b37He.6627$p%[email protected]:

    > The critical issue there is height above the water. Otherwise the
    > signal would be blocked by the curvature of the earth. It's why
    > lighthouses need to be tall.
    >


    Mast is 55' up. Sailboat.

    NO boat should go offshore without a registered 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    EPIRB....we don't. Accuracy of the fix is 1 meter...

    If you're interested in marine technology, go to Google and search on AIS,
    the new digital VHF Automatic Identification System that's already
    implemented on 300+ gross tons ships. Unlike Radar, it shows you who he
    is, where he is (exactly from GPS), his
    course/speed/destination/ETA/radio call/ship
    name/length/width/draft/MMSI for your GMDSS/everything but the first mate's
    underwear size. Check it out...
    http://emmel.alfahosting.org/english/receiver_en.htm
    http://www.acrelectronics.com/global...obalwatch.html
    http://www.panbo.com/
    http://www.sinequanonth.co.za/tbs.htm
    Shore-based transponders and repeaters will soon be transmitting data
    streams to put navigation markers/bouys/obstructions on AIS displays across
    their service areas. Truly amazing technology. In a waterway, unlike
    line-of-sight radar, you can "see" around the bend what ships/boats are
    around there. I'm monitoring it here and you can see it on the net at:
    http://aisfree.aislive.com/Influx.aspx
    http://emit.demon.co.uk/webcam/map.php
    http://www.navcom.no/aislive/
    Ah, I see "Highland Navigator" has just left Bergen Harbour, Norway...(c;

    --
    Larry



  14. #59
    The Ghost of General Lee
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:16:57 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Notice
    >his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
    >Beirut's? Wonder why that is? HIS congressman only represents 24000
    >people in that huge district.


    Well, I'll be damned. You are just as ignorant about Congressional
    apportionment as you are about so many other issues. Districts are
    drawn according to census counts, not land size.

    There is *NO* congressional district in this country that only has
    24,000 people. Not even 240,000. The average is somewhere around
    645,000. The smallest is probably Wyoming at around 500,000.

    Here's a clue:
    http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/tab01.txt

    Enjoy.




  15. #60
    High
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    Larry wrote:
    > George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
    > [email protected]:
    >
    >
    >>But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
    >>made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
    >>electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
    >>farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
    >>developments.
    >>

    >
    >
    > You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    > food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
    >

    I agree, city people don't have a clue. THEY SUCK!



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