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  1. #61
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:17:50 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
    >GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >>wrote:
    >>>The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
    >>>suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
    >>>suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.

    >>
    >>I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    >>35 miles.

    >
    ><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >[snip]
    > In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    > requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    > corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate.


    Like I said, about 35 miles. (57 km * .62 = 35 mi)

    Now what was your comment about 50-80 miles? No matter how much
    power and what kind of antenna you have, CMDA in the US won't work
    past 35 miles because the phones won't look for the signal.

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



    See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones




  2. #62
    Mutlley
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:


    >
    ><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >
    > ...
    > The theoretical limit of CDMA is set by a key signal-processing chip
    > in the base-station which has the job of searching incoming signals
    > for codes from the surrounding handsets. Radio signals take a finite
    > time to travel distance, and so there's always a round-trip delay in
    > signals reaching handsets and returning to the base-station.
    >
    > The expected maximum delay is known as the 'search-window', and the
    > chip is programmed to search only during this time for the individual
    > handset codes. The less time the signal processor spends searching,
    > the better, because it has other things to do in processing the
    > codes.
    >
    > In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    > requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    > corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate. But not for
    > Australia where AMPS must disappear.
    >
    > What Nortel (the Telstra contractor) proposes to do here is to add
    > extra chips (up to three) in their base-stations, each designed to
    > hunt for incoming codes in a series of delayed search-windows. They
    > hope, therefore, to have base-stations which can handle signals from
    > transmitters up to 200 kilometres away.
    >
    > So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    > recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    > different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    > ...


    That's rather an old link John. 1999. Though I believe that CDMA in
    Oz has a range of about 75Km



  3. #63
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:20:43 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:
    >What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    >range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    >nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    >the first tree it comes to.
    >
    >50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    >100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    >little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    >Cellular propagation isn't magic.


    I made a call at approx 50 miles with a 600 mW analog phone with a little
    antenna in April. I was on top of a 10,000 foot mountain on Maui, and
    the cell site was 50 miles away on the big island of Hawaii.

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



  4. #64
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:53 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
    >>>
    >>>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >>>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.

    >>
    >>No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    >>I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    >>http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    >>table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    >>currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

    >
    >Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs


    But we're talking about the United States.




  5. #65
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:16:57 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Jer <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
    >> anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
    >> like them.

    >
    >Millions like them....even in the cities.
    >
    >One thing overlooked here is the POWER the man you describe has. Notice
    >his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
    >Beirut's? ...


    Hardly.

    >AMPS will be on the air for a long time, ...


    I seriously doubt it.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  6. #66
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:20:43 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:OlaHe.6662$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    >> recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    >> different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    >> ...

    >
    >What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    >range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    >nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    >the first tree it comes to.


    Nonsense. My GSM 1900 phone routinely works at distances of 12-15 miles.

    >50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    >100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    >little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    >Cellular propagation isn't magic.


    You're misinformed on this too -- Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell works with
    standard CDMA handsets, and is field-proven. This release is *six* years old:

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. Recent
    field trials with Telstra in Australia have achieved coverage in excess of 120
    kilometers on land and 130 kilometers for marine service under typical
    conditions, using standard CDMA handsets and car kits.

    [MORE]

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  7. #67
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:57:52
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:17:50 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >>In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
    >>GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]t> wrote:


    >>>I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    >>>35 miles.

    >>
    >><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >>[snip]
    >> In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    >> requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    >> corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate.

    >
    >Like I said, about 35 miles. (57 km * .62 = 35 mi)
    >
    >Now what was your comment about 50-80 miles?


    That was in the part you snipped.

    >No matter how much
    >power and what kind of antenna you have, CMDA in the US won't work
    >past 35 miles because the phones won't look for the signal.


    The phones aren't the issue. Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell works with standard
    CDMA handsets, and is field-proven.

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. RECENT
    FIELD TRIALS WITH TELSTRA IN AUSTRALIA HAVE ACHIEVED COVERAGE IN EXCESS OF 120
    KILOMETERS ON LAND AND 130 KILOMETERS FOR MARINE SERVICE UNDER TYPICAL
    CONDITIONS, USING STANDARD CDMA HANDSETS AND CAR KITS. [emphasis added]

    [MORE]

    That was *six* years ago. Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell is also deployed in
    China. I understand that similar base station modifications are now available
    from other equipment suppliers.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  8. #68
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:00:19
    +1200, Mutlley <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:


    >That's rather an old link John. 1999. Though I believe that CDMA in
    >Oz has a range of about 75Km


    Much more than that. From that same time period:

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. RECENT
    FIELD TRIALS WITH TELSTRA IN AUSTRALIA HAVE ACHIEVED COVERAGE IN EXCESS OF 120
    KILOMETERS ON LAND AND 130 KILOMETERS FOR MARINE SERVICE UNDER TYPICAL
    CONDITIONS, USING STANDARD CDMA HANDSETS AND CAR KITS. [emphasis added]

    [MORE]

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  9. #69
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:49:00 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:b37He.6627$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> The critical issue there is height above the water. Otherwise the
    >> signal would be blocked by the curvature of the earth. It's why
    >> lighthouses need to be tall.

    >
    >Mast is 55' up. Sailboat.
    >
    >NO boat should go offshore without a registered 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    >EPIRB....we don't. Accuracy of the fix is 1 meter...


    Depends on how far you go offshore. For most boaters, 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    EPIRB is expensive overkill. We only have one because we do major races that
    take us so far offshore that we're out of the range of VHF and cellular. Even
    so, we turn first to satphone and/or SSB. EPIRB is only a last resort in a
    serious emergency.

    >If you're interested in marine technology, ...


    Thanks, but I'm quite familiar with marine technology.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  10. #70
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:09:48
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:53 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >>>>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
    >>>>
    >>>>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >>>>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.
    >>>
    >>>No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    >>>I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    >>>http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    >>>table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    >>>currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

    >>
    >>Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    >
    >But we're talking about the United States.


    I see nothing about the USA is these sweeping statements about CDMA.
    Regardless, I understand that these "super" cells are also being deployed in
    the USA.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  11. #71
    Jud Hardcastle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    > What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
    > out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
    > GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
    > by broadband ISPs. Data services are typically sold at a premium, and
    > one would think that at least some people living in these areas might be
    > interested in broadband enough to take a "fixed wireless" solution from
    > a cell carrier in lieu of nonexistent DSL or cable in these parts.
    > People paying such a premium to get reliable data would better justify
    > the cost of the building than just selling the voice service alone.
    >


    I'd like to point out a few things here since some of this talk seems to
    assume that Cingular or ATTWS or Verizon or Sprint is just being
    stubborn. Guess what--they aren't even directly involved.

    Speaking for Texas but I assume elsewhere also, there are many small
    carriers in the rural areas (wrong term--try non-metroplex areas--since
    it includes towns of 20000 to 30000). Back when the original 800mhz
    cellular was allocated the band was auctioned for two carriers--the "b"
    side was the wireline carrier and the "a" side was anyone else who could
    come up with the money. In many cases the wireline carrier wasn't
    interested and never built the system. The original "a" carriers often
    covered a few counties at most. Since then many have consolidated and
    there is a lot fewer but there's still dozens some still only handling
    maybe 3 or 4 counties. Because of that they 1) are more attuned to what
    THEIR customers need--which is a USABLE SIGNAL even down in a low valley
    where the pickup truck is parked while the driver steers a tractor
    around the field or in a saddle bag on a horse and 2) they don't have
    the gobs of money the big carriers do to waste. That includes dumping
    money into new transceiver hardware when what they have already works
    and it includes building new rural towers to support systems that don't
    reach as far--and rural towers probably cost 10 times what a city tower
    does if not more.

    As recent as 5 years ago I hit literaly dozens of areas driving through
    Texas that was analog/AMPS only. They gradually added TDMA starting in
    the bigger towns and then the 1500 ones. It's probably 95% TDMA now
    with AMPS as backup for really deep valleys and really low population
    areas that aren't close to major through highways.

    CDMA never even got a foothold--I can count CDMA areas in rural Texas on
    one hand. Verizon and Sprint may show rural America on their national
    maps but it's only via roaming agreements with these rural carriers--and
    all of it's AMPS. Fat chance of even finding a dual band phone with
    Sprint so forget their national coverage. And Verizon's will go "poof"
    if they don't have a CDMA/GSM phone out by the time AMPS sunsets--if it
    does. In fact, now I wonder if Verizon could be behind this sudden
    "move" to keep analog around in rural areas???

    This entire TDMA to GSM move by Cingular and ATTWS caught some of the
    carriers flatfooted. VERY few have followed big brother and converted--
    others are still researching and trying to get investment capital. I'm
    sure a lot of them wouldn't convert at all except for one big reason--
    not because their customers roam in the big cities and viceversa which
    is a good reason--but because they're going to run out of TDMA/AMPS
    phones. People I've spoken to in central Texas have been asked to bring
    their old phones in for repair where before it was "buy a new phone".
    From the point of view of the rural carrier it's really stupid going
    from TDMA to GSM for such a short time until the next conversion to
    WCDMA or whatever is chosen. THEY don't need the extra capacity. But
    they are being forced to spend money that may in many cases force them
    to sell out to a larger company. Already has in many cases--that's how
    ATTWS accquired as much rural coverage as it had.

    I just returned from a camping (RV) trip east of Waco and I appeared to
    be the ONLY person in the campground that wasn't climbing up a hill and
    standing just soso trying to get a signal which wasn't there. Why--
    because I had a GAIT phone in a carkit with an antenna on the motorhome
    roof and a 3watt booster inline--with a solid TDMA signal. There was
    ZERO GSM and ZERO CDMA. And it's going to be like that in rural areas
    for at least a couple of more years. Anybody depending on the Cingular
    national map for rural coverage is kidding themselves.

    PS. Friend of the family got DSL 15 miles out of town along a rural
    dirt road BEFORE I got it in Dallas. People might be surprised as to how
    high tech some of the rural folks are. Even small ranchers are using
    electronic tags to identify livestock and computer software--asset
    management and trend analysis--that rivals that of the big warehouses.
    And some of the big farm equipment is simply awesome with builtin
    computers that can pretty much control every function automatically--and
    you don't even want to know what those things costs!!!

    ---
    Jud
    Dallas TX



  12. #72
    John Richards
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    High wrote:
    > Larry wrote:
    >>
    >> You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    >> food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
    >>

    > I agree, city people don't have a clue. THEY SUCK!


    Who engineers and designs the tractors, refrigerators and other major
    appliances that farmers use?
    Who runs the power plants that bring electricity to the farm?
    Who manufactures the fertilizer and pesticides that farmers need?
    Chances are, it's city folk.

    --
    John Richards






  13. #73
    Notan
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Richards wrote:
    >
    > High wrote:
    > > Larry wrote:
    > >>
    > >> You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    > >> food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
    > >>

    > > I agree, city people don't have a clue. THEY SUCK!

    >
    > Who engineers and designs the tractors, refrigerators and other major
    > appliances that farmers use?
    > Who runs the power plants that bring electricity to the farm?
    > Who manufactures the fertilizer and pesticides that farmers need?
    > Chances are, it's city folk.


    Sorry to interrupt your pissing match, kids, but you'll find
    every kind of person living in every kind of setting.

    Notan



  14. #74
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005
    01:57:45 GMT, Jud Hardcastle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >and it includes building new rural towers to support systems that don't
    >reach as far--


    They do reach as far.

    >and rural towers probably cost 10 times what a city tower
    >does if not more.


    Nonetheless the returns are there.

    >This entire TDMA to GSM move by Cingular and ATTWS caught some of the
    >carriers flatfooted. VERY few have followed big brother and converted--
    >others are still researching and trying to get investment capital. I'm
    >sure a lot of them wouldn't convert at all except for one big reason--
    >not because their customers roam in the big cities and viceversa which
    >is a good reason--but because they're going to run out of TDMA/AMPS
    >phones.


    Another big reason is that much of their revenue and even more of their profit
    comes from roaming, for which they have to upgrade.

    >People I've spoken to in central Texas have been asked to bring
    >their old phones in for repair where before it was "buy a new phone".
    >From the point of view of the rural carrier it's really stupid going
    >from TDMA to GSM for such a short time until the next conversion to
    >WCDMA or whatever is chosen.


    On the contrary -- GSM will coexist with W-CDMA for many years to come.

    >I just returned from a camping (RV) trip east of Waco and I appeared to
    >be the ONLY person in the campground that wasn't climbing up a hill and
    >standing just soso trying to get a signal which wasn't there. Why--
    >because I had a GAIT phone in a carkit with an antenna on the motorhome
    >roof and a 3watt booster inline--with a solid TDMA signal. There was
    >ZERO GSM and ZERO CDMA. And it's going to be like that in rural areas
    >for at least a couple of more years. Anybody depending on the Cingular
    >national map for rural coverage is kidding themselves.


    FWIW, I'm now starting to see rural areas where I get GSM coverage while those
    with TDMA(IS-136)/AMPS phones don't have coverage. I think the conversion is
    now going much faster than you think.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  15. #75
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005
    01:57:45 GMT, Jud Hardcastle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >...
    >And some of the big farm equipment is simply awesome with builtin
    >computers that can pretty much control every function automatically--and
    >you don't even want to know what those things costs!!!


    <sarcasm> Yet another good reason for farm subsidies. </sarcasm>
    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



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