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  1. #106
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:hbsHe.6762$p%[email protected]:

    > Those maps are for WISP (Wireless Internet Service Provider), not
    > cellular.
    >
    >


    Those maps are EXACTLY what an 800 or 1900 Mhz cellular phone cell terrain
    map looks like.

    --
    Larry



    See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones




  2. #107
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:36tHe.6787$p%[email protected]:

    > I shake my head and chuckle when Usenet ranters presume to take on
    > those of us with real experience and expertise.
    >


    No AIS yet?

    --
    Larry



  3. #108
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:41:22 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:W3sHe.6756$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> You're badly misinformed. The Nortel "Boomer" Cell (and similar
    >> technology from other suppliers) does work and is deployed in the real
    >> world.

    >
    >What's its receiver sensitivity?


    Ask Nortel.

    >How can it hear tiny cellphones buried in
    >the thermal noise in the middle of the day?


    That's a joke, right?

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  4. #109
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:42:11 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:hbsHe.6762$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> Those maps are for WISP (Wireless Internet Service Provider), not
    >> cellular.

    >
    >Those maps are EXACTLY what an 800 or 1900 Mhz cellular phone cell terrain
    >map looks like.


    Nope.

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

    "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
    difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
    boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --Gene Spafford



  5. #110
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on 1 Aug 2005
    14:34:18 -0700, "Donald N" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Have we gotten OT, or what?


    No kidding! LOL

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

    "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
    difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
    boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --Gene Spafford



  6. #111
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:44:36 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:36tHe.6787$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> I shake my head and chuckle when Usenet ranters presume to take on
    >> those of us with real experience and expertise.

    >
    >No AIS yet?


    Nope. We're a 52' racing sailboat, not an oil tanker, and AIS other than
    Class A is still under development.

    --
    Best regards,
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
    "It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
    than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]



  7. #112
    Donald Newcomb
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones


    "Bob Scheurle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    > http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    > table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    > currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).


    I don't see where that says anything about maximum range. It just gives
    examples of the number of "chips" that need to be searched for handoffs.

    --
    Donald Newcomb
    DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net





  8. #113
    David L
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    Hi John,

    Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
    analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
    handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
    Marine. [bottom of post]
    Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
    start talking on the CDMA side?

    The US carriers are going to have to make very similar deployments with
    boomer towers in rural areas, if they ever expect to turn off analog.
    Australia uses the same kind of cellular phones and the same
    frequencies, so it's not a great leap to expect similar solutions be
    used in this country.
    OZ just turned off analog already, by legislative decree, and carriers
    in the US have not been forced to address this issue.

    The FCC has forced GPS location technologies on the cellular industry,
    in the interest of public safety. I believe a strong case can be made
    for the life saving benefits of basic, cellular voice service in rural
    areas, both for locals and travelers. Probably too obvious a point for
    government bureaucrats and too expensive a proposition for the Cellcos
    to even acknowledge.

    What is Cingular's position on current TDMA/Analog rural customers, who
    are not covered by GSM yet, but can only upgrade to a GSM handset/plan?
    Apparently, GAIT (GSM/TDMA/analog) plans are no longer offered,
    allthough the handsets abound on Ebay?

    The only other option for rural coverage is a Satellite phone. Sat plan
    prices have come down to levels similar to cellular service 6-8+ years
    ago, $500 handset. $65/150 minutes per month. These Sat handsets can
    also support dual CDMA bands/ANALOG or come in GSM versions.

    Globalstar is modest premium over cellular service, for those who can
    not afford to be without a mobile communication device.

    http://www.globalstarusa.com/en/airtime/voicepricing/


    As expected TDMA spectrum is decreasing even more rapidly in many GSM
    markets, from anecdotal user reports. Suspect a rough TDMA/analog
    phase out for many rural users, but the end, I'm expecting a fabulous
    GSM network to rival, and likely exceed VZW's. The competition will be
    great for consumers!
    Anyone know if Nortel is invoicing "boomer" towers?


    Found this interesting _rumor_ about Cingular's technology
    apportioning. Sound reasonable?

    Insiders at Cingular say, "the target date for nationwide TDMA shutdown
    is Dec. 31, 2007, but the actual date will depend on complex revenue
    and cost figures as time goes by. At the moment, in most areas of the
    country, when converting TDMA towers to GSM, they're leaving
    approximately 30% TDMA and 10% analog capacity."

    ==========================================================
    Telstra CDMA Rural Field Trial

    http://www.cdg.org/news/may99_rural.html

    "Mt Dowe" Base Station, NSW
    Overview
    This report outlines the results of several tests that were conducted
    from the Mt Dowe base station in Northern NSW.
    The objectives of the tests were twofold:
    Verify the functionality and performance of the CDMA Extended Cell
    feature that will be used in the Telstra CDMA network. Normally, CDMA
    range is limited to no more than 62 km by mobile and base station
    hardware and software. The Nortel Networks extended cell ("Boomer
    Cell")
    removes this artificial limitation on range.
    To compare the coverage between analogue and CDMA at a rural site with
    an extended coverage area.
    Such sites are common throughout rural Australia.
    The basis for comparison was between standard CDMA units (0.2Watt
    output
    power, no booster) and analogue (3Watt boosted) mobile phones, paying
    particular attention to speech quality as well as dropout points.
    Mt Dowe is a very high mountain top with an analogue base station
    situated 37 km east of Narrabri in northern NSW, and typically provides
    vehicle based analogue coverage across wide areas, with distances in
    excess of 100 km from the base station..."
    [SNIP]

    Conclusions

    "The two test drives conducted clearly showed that CDMA and analogue
    coverage in this area are very comparable, with CDMA marginally better
    on one drive route and very similar to analogue along the other.
    In all tests CDMA maintained very high call quality.
    The tests have demonstrated that using the Nortel Boomer Cell, Telstra
    CDMA can provide coverage over land at distances in excess of 100 km,
    subject to base station location, height and surrounding terrain.
    It was noted that the distances achieved were consistent with the radio
    path horizon and intervening terrain in this area, beyond which earth
    curvature limits the radio signals."

    ==========================================================
    MARINE TEST (complete) at

    http://www.cdg.org/news/may99_marine.html


    ....Conclusions

    "This test has clearly demonstrated that the Telstra CDMA network is
    not limited by any artificial range constraints and that the Nortel
    "Boomer Cell" is capable of delivering extended coverage over very long
    distances.

    The marine test has shown that CDMA coverage to sea can be achieved at
    distances well in excess of 100 km from very high mountain top base
    stations.

    CDMA coverage to around 130 km was achieved from the Peak Alone base
    station, beyond which the radio path is obstructed by the curvature of
    the earth.

    CDMA call quality in a marine environment was found to be consistently
    good, with the background noise suppression being particularly useful
    in noisy environments."

    ==========================================================
    -
    David




  9. #114
    Steve Sobol
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    David L wrote:

    > Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
    > analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
    > handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
    > Marine. [bottom of post]
    > Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
    > start talking on the CDMA side?


    I don't know, but the way I understand it, Australia has GSM deployed in the
    cities and CDMA in the rural areas, so CDMA must do pretty well, long-range.


    --
    Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
    Company website: http://JustThe.net/
    Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
    E: [email protected] Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307



  10. #115
    Donald Newcomb
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones


    "Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I don't know, but the way I understand it, Australia has GSM deployed in

    the
    > cities and CDMA in the rural areas, so CDMA must do pretty well,

    long-range.

    Australia had an AMPS analog network which the government agreed to "shut
    down" to get companies interested in bidding on the GSM licenses they were
    offering. When it came time to "shut down" the analog network there was a
    stink from some rural folks who had analog coverage but not GSM coverage.
    The governemnt allowed Telstra to "shut down" analog but "start up" CDMA on
    the same license. It's not really a rural/urban thing but the CDMA service
    does have better coverage in many rural areas.

    --
    Donald Newcomb
    DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net





  11. #116
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on 1 Aug 2005
    23:38:30 -0700, "David L" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
    >analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
    >handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
    >Marine. [bottom of post]
    >Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
    >start talking on the CDMA side?


    CDMA is of course subject to cell shrinkage as the number of active callers
    increases, but the effect can be minimized with proper design. It's mostly a
    matter of deploying enough capacity to handle the traffic.

    >The US carriers are going to have to make very similar deployments with
    >boomer towers in rural areas, if they ever expect to turn off analog.


    It's essentially just a cost issue -- Nortel's "boomer" towers make rural
    coverage possible with half the number of towers, terrain permitting. That
    last is the catch -- in hilly areas, the advantage may be much less.

    >Australia uses the same kind of cellular phones and the same
    >frequencies, so it's not a great leap to expect similar solutions be
    >used in this country.


    The initial field trials were run in this country, and I understand that
    similar technology has been deployed here in some areas.

    >OZ just turned off analog already, by legislative decree, and carriers
    >in the US have not been forced to address this issue.


    And probably won't be. The impetus is more from issues of capacity and
    handset availability.

    >The FCC has forced GPS location technologies on the cellular industry,
    >in the interest of public safety.


    Location yes, but not necessarily GPS -- GSM carriers aren't using GPS
    (actually A-GPS).

    >I believe a strong case can be made
    >for the life saving benefits of basic, cellular voice service in rural
    >areas, both for locals and travelers. Probably too obvious a point for
    >government bureaucrats and too expensive a proposition for the Cellcos
    >to even acknowledge.


    There are better technologies than cellular from a pure safety standpoint;
    e.g., 406 PLB <http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp>.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  12. #117
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:sEyHe.6900$p%[email protected]:

    > Nope.
    >
    >


    Ok, smartass....Show us one....

    --
    Larry



  13. #118
    David S
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:05:53 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> chose to add
    this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

    >The Ghost of General Lee <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> Well, I'll be damned. You are just as ignorant about Congressional
    >> apportionment as you are about so many other issues. Districts are
    >> drawn according to census counts, not land size.

    >
    >The number's wrong but you're not so stupid you don't get my point, are
    >you?


    HIS point is that all Congressional districts have roughly equal
    populations, which makes YOUR point invalid.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "It was a true Olympic moment -- people from many nations joining together
    in the spirit of friendship, of understanding, of KC, and -- above all --
    of the Sunshine Band." - Dave Barry




  14. #119
    David S
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:33:15 GMT, "John Richards" <[email protected]>
    chose to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and
    everything:

    >Who engineers and designs the tractors, refrigerators and other major
    >appliances that farmers use?
    >Who runs the power plants that bring electricity to the farm?
    >Who manufactures the fertilizer and pesticides that farmers need?
    >Chances are, it's city folk.


    John Deere tractors, Moline, Illinois, population 43,768 (throw in the
    adjoining towns of Rock Island, Silvis, East Moline, and Davenport and
    Bettendorf, Iowa, and the entire "metro area" population is 234,519).
    Having been there a few times, I can tell you they all have a "small town
    in hard times" feeling to them.

    Maytag appliances, Newton, Iowa, population 14,789. Actually, I'm surprised
    it's that big.

    Most of the power plants that serve Chicago (and the farms of northern
    Illinois) are located on the outskirts of small towns ringing the city; the
    closest nuclear plant is in Zion, 45 miles north, population 22,866 (aside:
    it has at least one, maybe all of its reactors permanently off line due to
    an operator's error). Others are in Byron, 2,917; Braidwood, 5,203...

    I have no idea where fertilizer and pesticides are made, but I'm sure it's
    not in major cities.

    The point is, the big cities, small towns, and rural farms are all parts of
    a comprehensive whole, all interdependent on each other, and the people in
    all of them have the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of
    happiness -- and cellular coverage.

    --
    David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
    http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
    Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
    Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
    "I love sports. Whenever I can I always watch the Detroit Tigers on radio."
    - Gerald Ford




  15. #120
    Jud Hardcastle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    In article <4WiHe.6712$p%[email protected]>, spamfilter0
    @navasgroup.com says...
    >
    > >and it includes building new rural towers to support systems that don't
    > >reach as far--

    >
    > They do reach as far.


    As TDMA maybe but not 3watt AMPS and there are lots of analog users
    still. True they were addressing that anyway with new towers but this
    forced GSM-only push has accelerated everything.
    >
    >
    > On the contrary -- GSM will coexist with W-CDMA for many years to come.
    >

    True but they did'nt NEED to convert and could have waited for the next
    wave--personally I think Cingular could/should have waited also.
    >
    >
    > FWIW, I'm now starting to see rural areas where I get GSM coverage while those
    > with TDMA(IS-136)/AMPS phones don't have coverage. I think the conversion is
    > now going much faster than you think.
    >

    Haven't seen that yet. They may be putting GSM-only radios on new
    towers--even ones that had been built for TDMA but hadn't gone online
    yet. If there is a significant cost saving that might be a good move--
    existing TDMA/AMPS users would not complain about loss of service since
    they never used that tower anyway.

    --
    Jud
    Dallas TX USA



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