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  1. #16
    spum
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    Re: I'm bored and miserable

    Yeah, that and the fact that some people are willing to die for their secrets. No amount of torture will guarantee anything. False information is just as likely as good information. Take it from John McCain who has been in the situation. He's against it for similar reasons.


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  2. #17
    Griffzan
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    Re: I'm bored and miserable

    Has anyone heard of sodium penithol (truth serum) if we are beating terrorists, which I pesonally could care less if we are and they truly are terrorists, then it would stand to reason that a little truth serum wouldn't hurt. Also seeing as spum is such a hardcore government activist (and I mean active in the government, no disrespect) that he wouldn't mind doing a little research on this and it's effectiveness in really getting the truth. In my opinion it seems if this is a viable resource then why complain if there are no side effects. Also me personally, I don't argue about anything unless I feel I'm 100% correct so although I'm not as knowing in government as many here my opinions are hard to sway, my step-Dad (who I consider my Dad) is an ex navy seal and a real hard ass who did his best to instill in me a sense of right and wrong and before I moved away he left me with a piece of advice that although you may not understand fully, is my one rule in life "What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong, and you always stick up for what is right." Now what I see here is shades of gray, an issue that has many sides, I see the good that although a war (any war) is a bad thing, but a nessary evil, and if we never went over to Iraq that Saddam would still be in power implementing his law and crushing those who oppose it (free speech is one of the best thing about our country) and although so many have died during this war, if Saddam were to stay in power the next person to fill his shoes would be worse as he saw no penalties for the atrocities that were commited by Saddam, now we're over there and yes pretty much stuck until we fix the mess we made, at least enough so they can stand on their own. Now I also recall a time not so long ago where Bush's approval rating was pretty high, and now that things are rough and people are feeling the hurt at home not so many people are happy with the fact we're STILL there, as I said before I my not support the war but I will always support our troops. I can also say that when our troops see their own country protest a war with such vigor as is happening here in Mich, where not to long ago they where protesting at funerals, that strikes a cord and decreases morale. And when those same troops return to Iraq to fight a war it's addictive, the feeling that "Why am I here?" and they make mistakes and people die. I may not know alot about everything but one subject I'm an expert on is analizing people, why they do what they do, what led them to that action, what was going though their mind when they made that decision. Most people are content to do as their told by a higher up without question (hence religion) and until an outside force introduces doubt, in a soldiers life quiet times give time to reflect on their doubt and it festers, and turns to anger, self loathing, as well as hate due to the fact they feel they shouldn't be fighting anymore. And those thoughts suface all the time not just when they have a moment to refect... gets in the way of their training and like I said people die. I would like to offer a piece of advice on that note "Why not stop protesting, turn your efforts to making our own troops feel at home when their "at home" instead of the strangers in a strange land, because, trust me, all the protesting isn't going to stop the war it never has, we're there for the duration or until they can walk on their own feet."



  3. #18
    spum
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    Re: I'm bored and miserable

    You bring up a good point about the truth syrum. I don't know enough about it to say that it would or wouldn't work, although if it does work on its own, it would certainly be a good alternative to torturing anybody.

    You're right about Saddam killing people and his next in line would probably kill people too. The thing is that I don't see that changing with a new government. Right now, the country is pretty much split up into three groups: Sunnis, Shiites, and terrorist cells. The Sunnis and the Shiites hate each other and are killing each other for power and out of spite right now. Neither group like the terrorists, so they're killing terrorists as well and the terrorists are defending themselves by killing everybody else. The Iraqi police are worthless because a lot of them have allegiance to the Sunnis or Shiites and the rest are too scared to do anything. So by taking out Saddam, what have we fixed? Not a whole lot. If a Sunni ends up in power, it will be the same situation but in reverse. If a Shiite ends up in power, it will be the same situation as it was with Saddam. The only difference that may happen once the Iraq is in a stable enough position to handle itself is that it would be a power shift. Different party in power causing the opposite oppression.

    As far as supporting the troops, there's no reason NOT to. It's not their fault that they're over there. They have a job to do no matter how they feel about the situation. I personally send little things to friends of mine over there. Maxim or FHM or just an email makes a difference. However, as it is, there is no way that those troops can come home any time soon. If we left now, Iraq would be a state of total anarchy. I have no idea what to do to fix it because there's not a lot you can do to fight hatred. Saddam was a really bad guy to have the position that he did. On the other hand, he was able to keep all the groups in check. That's better than what we've accomplished so far.



  4. #19
    mayford5
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    Re: I'm bored and miserable

    As far as supporting the troops, there's no reason NOT to. It's not their fault that they're over there. They have a job to do no matter how they feel about the situation. I personally send little things to friends of mine over there. Maxim or FHM or just an email makes a difference. However, as it is, there is no way that those troops can come home any time soon. If we left now, Iraq would be a state of total anarchy. I have no idea what to do to fix it because there's not a lot you can do to fight hatred. Saddam was a really bad guy to have the position that he did. On the other hand, he was able to keep all the groups in check. That's better than what we've accomplished so far.
    But in your statements you do not support what they are doing. Are you saying they are stupid and can not determine what they want to do. Or just saying they have no choice. From what I hear we have a 100% voluntary military. Even in when you have orders you can express you disapproval of them. You may be court-martialed for and re-assigned but you can still voice your opinion. The thing is it is rarely done because our men and women are proud to serve their country.

    As far as Saddam keeping people in check. That is the most lame argument I have ever heard. You say you don't support torture but what do you think Saddam was doing. You have no idea what you are talking about on this matter so stop thinking through your leftist goggles and think for your self.

    To Griffzan, Right on target.
    Last edited by mayford5; 11-11-2006 at 10:50 AM.



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