"Cingular Extend" vs. roaming

Hi all,

This is an old problem but it bit me recently.

I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.

I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
or out of my free nationwide calling area.

This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, Michigan

---

› See More: "Cingular Extend" vs. roaming

"Paul Goelz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all,
>
> This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>
> I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
> in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
> Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
> bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
> Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
> was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>
> I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
> said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
> was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
> area.

Simple solution . . . if you are showing "cingular extend" and you are not
SURE that you are roaming or not, dial 611 first and see what voicemail you
get. If it's a Canadian phone company (for example), you know you are
roaming. HOWEVER . . .

I visited extreme North New York recently, and billboard signs in that area
were advertising that roaming on Cingular Nation was now FREE in certain
areas of Canada. So I'm surprised you got hit with a roaming fee even IF
you happened to hit a Canadian tower. -Dave

Paul,

Welcome the Joys of RADIO and Propagation of radio waves.

You need to remember that you are NOT on a wired telephone but on
a radio. You infact have NO control on how the radio signals propagate.

There are lots of reasons why this might happen. It could be ducting
simply being located in the duct. ( Ducting is an atmospheric condition
that act like a pipe to radio waves.)

(If you are a HAM like me, I love ducting on 2 meters because of the
contacts I can make)

Your situation is not the first and not the last but if it happens
again, expect to pay full freight.

73's ( ham lingo for have a nice day)
Chip
KF4WBK





Paul Goelz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>
> I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
> in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
> Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
> bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
> Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
> was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>
> I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
> said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
> was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
> area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
> times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
> or out of my free nationwide calling area.
>
> This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
> list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
> it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
> in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Goelz
> Rochester Hills, Michigan
>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 02 Aug 2004 08:13:57 -0400,
Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:

>Welcome the Joys of RADIO and Propagation of radio waves.
>
>You need to remember that you are NOT on a wired telephone but on
>a radio. You infact have NO control on how the radio signals propagate.
>
>There are lots of reasons why this might happen. It could be ducting
>simply being located in the duct. ( Ducting is an atmospheric condition
>that act like a pipe to radio waves.)
>
>(If you are a HAM like me, I love ducting on 2 meters because of the
>contacts I can make)
>
>Your situation is not the first and not the last but if it happens
>again, expect to pay full freight.
>
>73's ( ham lingo for have a nice day)
>Chip
>KF4WBK

>Paul Goelz wrote:

>> This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>>
>> I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
>> in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
>> Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
>> bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
>> Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
>> was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>>
>> I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
>> said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
>> was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
>> area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
>> times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
>> or out of my free nationwide calling area.
>>
>> This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
>> list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
>> it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
>> in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 14:26:24 GMT, John Navas
<[email protected]> wrote:

>With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
>network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.

As an interesting side issue, this evidently is happening constantly
in Hong Kong, with customers being picked up by mainland China towers
and then getting billed for international calls back to Hong Kong.
Some folks are running up $$$$ in bills.

> I visited extreme North New York recently, and billboard signs in that area
> were advertising that roaming on Cingular Nation was now FREE in certain
> areas of Canada. So I'm surprised you got hit with a roaming fee even IF
> you happened to hit a Canadian tower. -Dave

I saw a billboard like that on I-81 around watertown...

I wasn't sure the carrier -- I went to cingular's web site
and they have NOTHING On this...

They list calls to canada as 19c/minute with a 3.99 plan, 79c/minute
without one...

marty

>I visited extreme North New York recently, and billboard signs in that area
>were advertising that roaming on Cingular Nation was now FREE in certain
>areas of Canada. So I'm surprised you got hit with a roaming fee even IF
>you happened to hit a Canadian tower. -Dave

To answer this and the other comments above.....

First of all, my local area includes adjacent areas in Canada such as
Windsor and Sarnia.

I was in a town called Lexington MI. About 15 miles north of Port
Huron on the west shore of Lake Huron. The system I was billed from
was identified on the bill as Mount Forest Ontario, which is 103 miles
ENE from where I was as the crow flies. I suspect that was a billing
thing, and the actual tower was a lot closer..... but still the
closest point in Canada is Sarnia, 15 miles away and within my local
calling area. I have made calls from Sarnia with no toll or airtime
charge. If you go up the east shore of Lake Huron from Sarnia, you
rapidly get farther and farther away.

Like John Navas said, I am not concerned with HOW this happened.... I
am in fact a ham (WA9PUL) and fully aware of how it might happen.
What I am concerned about is that it apparently can happen without any
indication on my phone that I am "roaming" on a system that has no
agreement with Cingular. Seems to me that the system is quite capable
of distinguising between a Cingular area, a non-Cingular but free
nationwide roaming area, and an area that was outside the free
nationwide area... in other words, an area that had no pre-existing
agreement with Cingular.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, Michigan

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:56:15
-0400, Paul Goelz <[email protected]> wrote:

>Like John Navas said, I am not concerned with HOW this happened.... I
>am in fact a ham (WA9PUL) and fully aware of how it might happen.
>What I am concerned about is that it apparently can happen without any
>indication on my phone that I am "roaming" on a system that has no
>agreement with Cingular. Seems to me that the system is quite capable
>of distinguising between a Cingular area, a non-Cingular but free
>nationwide roaming area, and an area that was outside the free
>nationwide area...

Correct.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

>What I am concerned about is that it apparently can happen without any
>indication on my phone that I am "roaming" on a system that has no
>agreement with Cingular. Seems to me that the system is quite capable
>of distinguising between a Cingular area, a non-Cingular but free
>nationwide roaming area, and an area that was outside the free
>nationwide area... in other words, an area that had no pre-existing
>agreement with Cingular.

Keep in mind that when you are looking at your screen you may see one thing.
However when you push send and put the phone to your ear, not only does the
screen change but it is entirely possible that the "best" signal for that call
is not the site that was giving you the indication just before you pressed
send.

This might have been what happened to you because of skip or whatever reason.
The good part is that they credited your account appropriatly.

--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net

John,

You are correct, it could be correct by programming and it should be.

But cell telephones are still radios, and the progation of radio
waves are dictated by local weather conditions.

Everyone needs to understand this basic fact. What towers one picks up
can be supprising.

Chip


John Navas wrote:
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
> network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.
>
> In <[email protected]> on Mon, 02 Aug 2004 08:13:57 -0400,
> Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Welcome the Joys of RADIO and Propagation of radio waves.
>>
>>You need to remember that you are NOT on a wired telephone but on
>>a radio. You infact have NO control on how the radio signals propagate.
>>
>>There are lots of reasons why this might happen. It could be ducting
>>simply being located in the duct. ( Ducting is an atmospheric condition
>>that act like a pipe to radio waves.)
>>
>>(If you are a HAM like me, I love ducting on 2 meters because of the
>>contacts I can make)
>>
>>Your situation is not the first and not the last but if it happens
>>again, expect to pay full freight.
>>
>>73's ( ham lingo for have a nice day)
>>Chip
>>KF4WBK
>
>
>>Paul Goelz wrote:
>
>
>>>This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>>>
>>>I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
>>>in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
>>>Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
>>>bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
>>>Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
>>>was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>>>
>>>I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
>>>said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
>>>was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
>>>area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
>>>times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
>>>or out of my free nationwide calling area.
>>>
>>>This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
>>>list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
>>>it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
>>>in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??
>
>

Paul,

Yes, this is a correctable probem and absoltely be solved by programming.

Chip

Paul Goelz wrote:
>>I visited extreme North New York recently, and billboard signs in that area
>>were advertising that roaming on Cingular Nation was now FREE in certain
>>areas of Canada. So I'm surprised you got hit with a roaming fee even IF
>>you happened to hit a Canadian tower. -Dave
>
>
> To answer this and the other comments above.....
>
> First of all, my local area includes adjacent areas in Canada such as
> Windsor and Sarnia.
>
> I was in a town called Lexington MI. About 15 miles north of Port
> Huron on the west shore of Lake Huron. The system I was billed from
> was identified on the bill as Mount Forest Ontario, which is 103 miles
> ENE from where I was as the crow flies. I suspect that was a billing
> thing, and the actual tower was a lot closer..... but still the
> closest point in Canada is Sarnia, 15 miles away and within my local
> calling area. I have made calls from Sarnia with no toll or airtime
> charge. If you go up the east shore of Lake Huron from Sarnia, you
> rapidly get farther and farther away.
>
> Like John Navas said, I am not concerned with HOW this happened.... I
> am in fact a ham (WA9PUL) and fully aware of how it might happen.
> What I am concerned about is that it apparently can happen without any
> indication on my phone that I am "roaming" on a system that has no
> agreement with Cingular. Seems to me that the system is quite capable
> of distinguising between a Cingular area, a non-Cingular but free
> nationwide roaming area, and an area that was outside the free
> nationwide area... in other words, an area that had no pre-existing
> agreement with Cingular.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul Goelz
> Rochester Hills, Michigan
>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

Agreed.

In <[email protected]> on Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:45:52 -0400,
Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:

>John,
>
>You are correct, it could be correct by programming and it should be.
>
>But cell telephones are still radios, and the progation of radio
>waves are dictated by local weather conditions.
>
>Everyone needs to understand this basic fact. What towers one picks up
>can be supprising.
>
>Chip
>
>John Navas wrote:
>>
>> With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
>> network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.
>>
>> In <[email protected]> on Mon, 02 Aug 2004 08:13:57 -0400,
>> Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Welcome the Joys of RADIO and Propagation of radio waves.
>>>
>>>You need to remember that you are NOT on a wired telephone but on
>>>a radio. You infact have NO control on how the radio signals propagate.
>>>
>>>There are lots of reasons why this might happen. It could be ducting
>>>simply being located in the duct. ( Ducting is an atmospheric condition
>>>that act like a pipe to radio waves.)
>>>
>>>(If you are a HAM like me, I love ducting on 2 meters because of the
>>>contacts I can make)
>>>
>>>Your situation is not the first and not the last but if it happens
>>>again, expect to pay full freight.
>>>
>>>73's ( ham lingo for have a nice day)
>>>Chip
>>>KF4WBK
>>
>>
>>>Paul Goelz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>>>>
>>>>I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
>>>>in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
>>>>Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
>>>>bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
>>>>Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
>>>>was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>>>>
>>>>I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
>>>>said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
>>>>was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
>>>>area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
>>>>times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
>>>>or out of my free nationwide calling area.
>>>>
>>>>This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
>>>>list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
>>>>it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
>>>>in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??
>>
>>

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

John,

Wow, two people on this forum actually agreeing on a topic,

This must be a first

Chip


John Navas wrote:
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> Agreed.
>
> In <[email protected]> on Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:45:52 -0400,
> Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>John,
>>
>>You are correct, it could be correct by programming and it should be.
>>
>>But cell telephones are still radios, and the progation of radio
>>waves are dictated by local weather conditions.
>>
>>Everyone needs to understand this basic fact. What towers one picks up
>>can be supprising.
>>
>>Chip
>>
>>John Navas wrote:
>>
>>>With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
>>>network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.
>>>
>>>In <[email protected]> on Mon, 02 Aug 2004 08:13:57 -0400,
>>>Ralph Blach <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Welcome the Joys of RADIO and Propagation of radio waves.
>>>>
>>>>You need to remember that you are NOT on a wired telephone but on
>>>>a radio. You infact have NO control on how the radio signals propagate.
>>>>
>>>>There are lots of reasons why this might happen. It could be ducting
>>>>simply being located in the duct. ( Ducting is an atmospheric condition
>>>>that act like a pipe to radio waves.)
>>>>
>>>>(If you are a HAM like me, I love ducting on 2 meters because of the
>>>>contacts I can make)
>>>>
>>>>Your situation is not the first and not the last but if it happens
>>>>again, expect to pay full freight.
>>>>
>>>>73's ( ham lingo for have a nice day)
>>>>Chip
>>>>KF4WBK
>>>
>>>
>>>>Paul Goelz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>This is an old problem but it bit me recently.
>>>>>
>>>>>I have true nationwide free roaming. Last month I made a couple calls
>>>>>in Michigan on the west shore of Lake Huron, about 10 miles north of
>>>>>Pt. Huron. The phone (I think) said Cingular Extend. When I got the
>>>>>bill, I discovered that I had placed the calls through a tower in
>>>>>Canada. The closest point in Canada is at least 10 miles from where I
>>>>>was, and the actual town named is more like 30-40 miles away.
>>>>>
>>>>>I called CS and they credited the calls back to me. But they also
>>>>>said that there is NO WAY for me to tell from the phone display that I
>>>>>was connected to a place that was outside my "Nationwide Free Roaming"
>>>>>area. According to them, the phone will say Cingular Extend at all
>>>>>times outside a Cingular service area, regardless of whether I am in
>>>>>or out of my free nationwide calling area.
>>>>>
>>>>>This seems pretty stupid since (as I understand it) the phone has a
>>>>>list of all systems that it is allowed to talk to. ?? As I understand
>>>>>it, the phone is simply programmed by Cingular to say Cingular Extend
>>>>>in non-Cingular but on plan areas AND in roaming mode. ??
>>>
>>>
>

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 14:26:24 GMT, John Navas
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
>With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
>network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.

Is the text displayed for each network condition anything that I can
change (like via hidden menus) on the V60T? Or is this entirely under
the control of Cingular? I seem to recall that it could be
re-programmed by the user on my old StarTac.

Paul
Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, Michigan USA

Paul,

the old cingular phone used to show the network and now they dont.

They even would allow one to choose a network. This is where the
problem lies. When a non us carrier is detected, the phone should alert
you and ask if you want to register.

If there are other carriers in the area, then you should have a list.

This is not the first post on this list about this problem. It
evidently frequently happens. You would think Cingular would get the
problem.

Chip

Paul Goelz wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 14:26:24 GMT, John Navas
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>>
>>With all due respect, Ralph, this isn't a radio issue. It's a cell phone and
>>network programming issue, which is under the control of the carrier.
>
>
> Is the text displayed for each network condition anything that I can
> change (like via hidden menus) on the V60T? Or is this entirely under
> the control of Cingular? I seem to recall that it could be
> re-programmed by the user on my old StarTac.
>
> Paul
> Paul Goelz
> Rochester Hills, Michigan USA
>