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  1. #61
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:OlaHe.6662$p%[email protected]:

    > So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    > recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    > different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    > ...
    >
    >


    What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    the first tree it comes to.

    50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    Cellular propagation isn't magic.

    --
    Larry



    See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones




  2. #62
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
    [email protected]:

    > But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
    > made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
    > electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
    > farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
    > developments.
    >


    You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.

    Dave is right on with his post.

    (Oh, Large Shrimp is $2/pound, heads-on, coming off the boats...(c

    --
    Larry



  3. #63
    Larry
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:b37He.6627$p%[email protected]:

    > The critical issue there is height above the water. Otherwise the
    > signal would be blocked by the curvature of the earth. It's why
    > lighthouses need to be tall.
    >


    Mast is 55' up. Sailboat.

    NO boat should go offshore without a registered 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    EPIRB....we don't. Accuracy of the fix is 1 meter...

    If you're interested in marine technology, go to Google and search on AIS,
    the new digital VHF Automatic Identification System that's already
    implemented on 300+ gross tons ships. Unlike Radar, it shows you who he
    is, where he is (exactly from GPS), his
    course/speed/destination/ETA/radio call/ship
    name/length/width/draft/MMSI for your GMDSS/everything but the first mate's
    underwear size. Check it out...
    http://emmel.alfahosting.org/english/receiver_en.htm
    http://www.acrelectronics.com/global...obalwatch.html
    http://www.panbo.com/
    http://www.sinequanonth.co.za/tbs.htm
    Shore-based transponders and repeaters will soon be transmitting data
    streams to put navigation markers/bouys/obstructions on AIS displays across
    their service areas. Truly amazing technology. In a waterway, unlike
    line-of-sight radar, you can "see" around the bend what ships/boats are
    around there. I'm monitoring it here and you can see it on the net at:
    http://aisfree.aislive.com/Influx.aspx
    http://emit.demon.co.uk/webcam/map.php
    http://www.navcom.no/aislive/
    Ah, I see "Highland Navigator" has just left Bergen Harbour, Norway...(c;

    --
    Larry



  4. #64
    The Ghost of General Lee
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:16:57 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Notice
    >his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
    >Beirut's? Wonder why that is? HIS congressman only represents 24000
    >people in that huge district.


    Well, I'll be damned. You are just as ignorant about Congressional
    apportionment as you are about so many other issues. Districts are
    drawn according to census counts, not land size.

    There is *NO* congressional district in this country that only has
    24,000 people. Not even 240,000. The average is somewhere around
    645,000. The smallest is probably Wyoming at around 500,000.

    Here's a clue:
    http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/tab01.txt

    Enjoy.




  5. #65
    High
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    Larry wrote:
    > George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
    > [email protected]:
    >
    >
    >>But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
    >>made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
    >>electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
    >>farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
    >>developments.
    >>

    >
    >
    > You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
    > food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
    >

    I agree, city people don't have a clue. THEY SUCK!



  6. #66
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:17:50 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
    >GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >>wrote:
    >>>The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
    >>>suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
    >>>suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.

    >>
    >>I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    >>35 miles.

    >
    ><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >[snip]
    > In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    > requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    > corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate.


    Like I said, about 35 miles. (57 km * .62 = 35 mi)

    Now what was your comment about 50-80 miles? No matter how much
    power and what kind of antenna you have, CMDA in the US won't work
    past 35 miles because the phones won't look for the signal.

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



  7. #67
    Mutlley
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:


    >
    ><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >
    > ...
    > The theoretical limit of CDMA is set by a key signal-processing chip
    > in the base-station which has the job of searching incoming signals
    > for codes from the surrounding handsets. Radio signals take a finite
    > time to travel distance, and so there's always a round-trip delay in
    > signals reaching handsets and returning to the base-station.
    >
    > The expected maximum delay is known as the 'search-window', and the
    > chip is programmed to search only during this time for the individual
    > handset codes. The less time the signal processor spends searching,
    > the better, because it has other things to do in processing the
    > codes.
    >
    > In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    > requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    > corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate. But not for
    > Australia where AMPS must disappear.
    >
    > What Nortel (the Telstra contractor) proposes to do here is to add
    > extra chips (up to three) in their base-stations, each designed to
    > hunt for incoming codes in a series of delayed search-windows. They
    > hope, therefore, to have base-stations which can handle signals from
    > transmitters up to 200 kilometres away.
    >
    > So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    > recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    > different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    > ...


    That's rather an old link John. 1999. Though I believe that CDMA in
    Oz has a range of about 75Km



  8. #68
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:20:43 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:
    >What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    >range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    >nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    >the first tree it comes to.
    >
    >50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    >100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    >little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    >Cellular propagation isn't magic.


    I made a call at approx 50 miles with a 600 mW analog phone with a little
    antenna in April. I was on top of a 10,000 foot mountain on Maui, and
    the cell site was 50 miles away on the big island of Hawaii.

    --
    Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
    [email protected] | rich writing software."
    Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980



  9. #69
    Bob Scheurle
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:53 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
    >>>
    >>>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >>>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.

    >>
    >>No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    >>I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    >>http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    >>table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    >>currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

    >
    >Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs


    But we're talking about the United States.




  10. #70
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:16:57 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Jer <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
    >> anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
    >> like them.

    >
    >Millions like them....even in the cities.
    >
    >One thing overlooked here is the POWER the man you describe has. Notice
    >his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
    >Beirut's? ...


    Hardly.

    >AMPS will be on the air for a long time, ...


    I seriously doubt it.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  11. #71
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:20:43 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:OlaHe.6662$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
    >> recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
    >> different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
    >> ...

    >
    >What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
    >range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
    >nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
    >the first tree it comes to.


    Nonsense. My GSM 1900 phone routinely works at distances of 12-15 miles.

    >50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
    >100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
    >little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
    >Cellular propagation isn't magic.


    You're misinformed on this too -- Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell works with
    standard CDMA handsets, and is field-proven. This release is *six* years old:

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. Recent
    field trials with Telstra in Australia have achieved coverage in excess of 120
    kilometers on land and 130 kilometers for marine service under typical
    conditions, using standard CDMA handsets and car kits.

    [MORE]

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  12. #72
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:57:52
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:17:50 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >>In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
    >>GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:


    >>>I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
    >>>35 miles.

    >>
    >><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
    >>[snip]
    >> In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
    >> requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
    >> corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate.

    >
    >Like I said, about 35 miles. (57 km * .62 = 35 mi)
    >
    >Now what was your comment about 50-80 miles?


    That was in the part you snipped.

    >No matter how much
    >power and what kind of antenna you have, CMDA in the US won't work
    >past 35 miles because the phones won't look for the signal.


    The phones aren't the issue. Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell works with standard
    CDMA handsets, and is field-proven.

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. RECENT
    FIELD TRIALS WITH TELSTRA IN AUSTRALIA HAVE ACHIEVED COVERAGE IN EXCESS OF 120
    KILOMETERS ON LAND AND 130 KILOMETERS FOR MARINE SERVICE UNDER TYPICAL
    CONDITIONS, USING STANDARD CDMA HANDSETS AND CAR KITS. [emphasis added]

    [MORE]

    That was *six* years ago. Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell is also deployed in
    China. I understand that similar base station modifications are now available
    from other equipment suppliers.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  13. #73
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:00:19
    +1200, Mutlley <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >><http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:


    >That's rather an old link John. 1999. Though I believe that CDMA in
    >Oz has a range of about 75Km


    Much more than that. From that same time period:

    <http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>

    August 5, 1999

    Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time

    Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
    the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
    Networks CDMA Rural Cell.

    Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
    Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
    kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
    typical CDMA base station.

    Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
    March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. RECENT
    FIELD TRIALS WITH TELSTRA IN AUSTRALIA HAVE ACHIEVED COVERAGE IN EXCESS OF 120
    KILOMETERS ON LAND AND 130 KILOMETERS FOR MARINE SERVICE UNDER TYPICAL
    CONDITIONS, USING STANDARD CDMA HANDSETS AND CAR KITS. [emphasis added]

    [MORE]

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  14. #74
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:49:00 -0400,
    Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

    >John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    >news:b37He.6627$p%[email protected]:
    >
    >> The critical issue there is height above the water. Otherwise the
    >> signal would be blocked by the curvature of the earth. It's why
    >> lighthouses need to be tall.

    >
    >Mast is 55' up. Sailboat.
    >
    >NO boat should go offshore without a registered 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    >EPIRB....we don't. Accuracy of the fix is 1 meter...


    Depends on how far you go offshore. For most boaters, 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
    EPIRB is expensive overkill. We only have one because we do major races that
    take us so far offshore that we're out of the range of VHF and cellular. Even
    so, we turn first to satphone and/or SSB. EPIRB is only a last resort in a
    serious emergency.

    >If you're interested in marine technology, ...


    Thanks, but I'm quite familiar with marine technology.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



  15. #75
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

    [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

    In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 01:09:48
    GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:34:53 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >>
    >>>>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
    >>>>
    >>>>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
    >>>>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.
    >>>
    >>>No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
    >>>I can't even begin to explain it, but see
    >>>http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
    >>>table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
    >>>currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

    >>
    >>Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs

    >
    >But we're talking about the United States.


    I see nothing about the USA is these sweeping statements about CDMA.
    Regardless, I understand that these "super" cells are also being deployed in
    the USA.

    --
    Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
    John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>



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