N80 discontinued. Being recalled?? Contract options

On 18 Oct 2006 14:46:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>I, like many others have the N80 on Orange.
>
>Nokia have released the v4 fix, yet Orange won't approve their version
>- leaving all N80 users with buggy phones.
>
>Nokia won't allow NSC's to flash with generic v4, as it voids my Orange
>warranty - even though Orange say the warranty is with Nokia *rolls
>eyes*
>
>Now to add insult to injury, the N80 has been pulled by nearly every UK
>network.
>
>So, this screams of a major fault and there are loads of forums with
>guru's posting that the N80 is, or will be recalled.
>
>Just a few:
>http://www.expansys.com/forumthread....499&thread=350
>http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum...ad.php?t=51560
>http://forum.simalert.com/showthread...ghlight=orange
>
>
>So question is what are the options for N80 owners? Can we demand the
>network gives us another phone under our contract with them, or simply
>put up with a handset which doesn't work, and the selling network admit
>doesn't work (hence discontinuing it). Nokia have the fix, so as far
>as they are concerned they've done everything they have to, it's now
>the networks prob for not allowing Nokia to distribute branded versions
>to end users via NSC's or the Nokia Software updater.
>
>Surely *something* in the Orange contract means I/we can terminate our
>contracts, and end our association with a network that doesn't give two
>hoots about supporting or looking after their customers (went down hill
>since Vodaphone and France Telecom got their hands on Orange, and
>ruined a perfectly good company in my view).
>
>I've emailed Orange cust services, simply an auto response. Called,
>they simply want to send another faulty handset (haven't they grasped
>the fact its FIRMWARE yet??????). Nokia say it's Oranges problem to
>sort as it's their variant, Orange say Nokia as they built the thing.
>
>Surely we have some comeback? Must be a legal obligation for a network
>operator (three, O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile, Orange etc) or Nokia to do
>SOMETHING!!!!!

As Jon earlier said - your contract with Orange is for the supply of
network airtime. Providing your SIM card works then that's the limit
of the protection under the SOGA - or that's what my local trading
standards are telling people who phone up about malfunctioning
handsets.

On the last couple of Nokia BB5 handsets I've had on Orange, I've paid
for the unlock code, and then had it flashed to original Nokia
firmware by someone I know & trust.

Cheers

Jim

---

› See More: N80 discontinued. Being recalled?? Contract options

Jim! wrote on 19/10/2006 :
> On 18 Oct 2006 14:46:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I, like many others have the N80 on Orange.
>>
>> Nokia have released the v4 fix, yet Orange won't approve their version
>> - leaving all N80 users with buggy phones.
>>
>> Nokia won't allow NSC's to flash with generic v4, as it voids my Orange
>> warranty - even though Orange say the warranty is with Nokia *rolls
>> eyes*
>>
>> Now to add insult to injury, the N80 has been pulled by nearly every UK
>> network.
>>
>> So, this screams of a major fault and there are loads of forums with
>> guru's posting that the N80 is, or will be recalled.
>>
>> Just a few:
>> http://www.expansys.com/forumthread....499&thread=350
>> http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/forum...ad.php?t=51560
>> http://forum.simalert.com/showthread...ghlight=orange
>>
>>
>> So question is what are the options for N80 owners? Can we demand the
>> network gives us another phone under our contract with them, or simply
>> put up with a handset which doesn't work, and the selling network admit
>> doesn't work (hence discontinuing it). Nokia have the fix, so as far
>> as they are concerned they've done everything they have to, it's now
>> the networks prob for not allowing Nokia to distribute branded versions
>> to end users via NSC's or the Nokia Software updater.
>>
>> Surely *something* in the Orange contract means I/we can terminate our
>> contracts, and end our association with a network that doesn't give two
>> hoots about supporting or looking after their customers (went down hill
>> since Vodaphone and France Telecom got their hands on Orange, and
>> ruined a perfectly good company in my view).
>>
>> I've emailed Orange cust services, simply an auto response. Called,
>> they simply want to send another faulty handset (haven't they grasped
>> the fact its FIRMWARE yet??????). Nokia say it's Oranges problem to
>> sort as it's their variant, Orange say Nokia as they built the thing.
>>
>> Surely we have some comeback? Must be a legal obligation for a network
>> operator (three, O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile, Orange etc) or Nokia to do
>> SOMETHING!!!!!
>
> As Jon earlier said - your contract with Orange is for the supply of
> network airtime. Providing your SIM card works then that's the limit
> of the protection under the SOGA - or that's what my local trading
> standards are telling people who phone up about malfunctioning
> handsets.
>
> On the last couple of Nokia BB5 handsets I've had on Orange, I've paid
> for the unlock code, and then had it flashed to original Nokia
> firmware by someone I know & trust.
>
> Cheers
>
> Jim

Surely not if you buy your phone from Orange's website. If you buy it
from a shop then your recourse would be with the shop as well surely.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:38:30 +0100, Jim! <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

>
>As Jon earlier said - your contract with Orange is for the supply of
>network airtime. Providing your SIM card works then that's the limit
>of the protection under the SOGA - or that's what my local trading
>standards are telling people who phone up about malfunctioning
>handsets.
>

In which case, either those people are misreporting what they have
told Trading Standards, or Trading Standards are giving very duff
advice.

The *retailer* is responsible under SOGA, not the manufacturer of the
handset, nor the network provider.

If you bought direct from Orange, then they *are* responsible for both
handset and network.

If you bought from a shop, then the shop are responsible for both.

You will sometimes find that the shop are acting as agents for the
network supplier, in which case the shop will usually only be
responsible for the handset, unless they are acting as agents for the
whole package,when Orange will be.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
RamDisk is *not* an installation procedure.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

MA wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I, like many others have the N80 on Orange.
> >
> > Nokia have released the v4 fix, yet Orange won't approve their version
> > - leaving all N80 users with buggy phones.
> >
>
> So what bugs are you actually seeing? Or are people just seeing a list of
> bug fixes by Nokia and wanting to upgrade, even though it may not directly
> affect them?
>
> I can't say I've had any problems with my N80 on Orange, I'm happy with it.

I'm seeing the same as everyone else - take your pick of topics from:
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/discu...search_results

On the basis that it is clearly evident I have refused a replacement
which will only exibit the same issues - as it's the same firmware.

It's actually not just Orange users (Three or 3, O2 & Voda too).
Clearly proving beyond all doubt that the new software is needed.

Nokia's stance is that the networks won't allow the handset to be
flashed with generic, as you'll loose all network support/replacement.
Nokia are also cracking down on service centres doing this, and
removing their ability to support Nokia handsets if caught. There has
been talk on Nokia Forum that this practice will also invalidate your
Nokia warranty - so not something many (including me) which to do.

The phone was purchased on upgrade from an Orange shop (so essentially
direct from Orange) and is less than 4 months old. It was purchased 2
days after launch on Orange, and was withdrawn by Orange (and some
other networks) nearly a month ago.

Orange Cust services give the N80 little care now it's discontinued,
and emailing the Executive Office (which I have the email address for)
simply goes unanswered for anyone who's tried to raise this at senior
level.

Bottom line appears to be Orange don't give a flying f*** about the
thousands of customers they've sold the N80 to. They're happy to move
around handsets, but that will never fix the problem.

So how can I/we get some results with our networks and get them to take
some degree of responsibilty for resolving the issue?

One user on Nokia forum has an email from exec office at orange clearly
stating they will not approved any updates to firmware after 3.617 as
they've discontinued it. On that basis what section of law will apply?
I'm getting conflicting answers reagrdingb whether the SoGA applies.

MA wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I, like many others have the N80 on Orange.
> >
> > Nokia have released the v4 fix, yet Orange won't approve their version
> > - leaving all N80 users with buggy phones.
> >
>
> So what bugs are you actually seeing? Or are people just seeing a list of
> bug fixes by Nokia and wanting to upgrade, even though it may not directly
> affect them?
>
> I can't say I've had any problems with my N80 on Orange, I'm happy with it.

I'm seeing the same as everyone else - take your pick of topics from:
http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/discu...search_results

On the basis that it is clearly evident I have refused a replacement
which will only exibit the same issues - as it's the same firmware.

It's actually not just Orange users (Three or 3, O2 & Voda too).
Clearly proving beyond all doubt that the new software is needed.

Nokia's stance is that the networks won't allow the handset to be
flashed with generic, as you'll loose all network support/replacement.
Nokia are also cracking down on service centres doing this, and
removing their ability to support Nokia handsets if caught. There has
been talk on Nokia Forum that this practice will also invalidate your
Nokia warranty - so not something many (including me) which to do.

The phone was purchased on upgrade from an Orange shop (so essentially
direct from Orange) and is less than 4 months old. It was purchased 2
days after launch on Orange, and was withdrawn by Orange (and some
other networks) nearly a month ago.

Orange Cust services give the N80 little care now it's discontinued,
and emailing the Executive Office (which I have the email address for)
simply goes unanswered for anyone who's tried to raise this at senior
level.

Bottom line appears to be Orange don't give a flying f*** about the
thousands of customers they've sold the N80 to. They're happy to move
around handsets, but that will never fix the problem.

So how can I/we get some results with our networks and get them to take
some degree of responsibilty for resolving the issue?

One user on Nokia forum has an email from exec office at orange clearly
stating they will not approved any updates to firmware after 3.617 as
they've discontinued it. On that basis what section of law will apply?
I'm getting conflicting answers reagrdingb whether the SoGA applies.

Jim! wrote:
>> Surely we have some comeback? Must be a legal obligation for a network
>> operator (three, O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile, Orange etc) or Nokia to do
>> SOMETHING!!!!!
>
> As Jon earlier said - your contract with Orange is for the supply of
> network airtime. Providing your SIM card works then that's the limit
> of the protection under the SOGA - or that's what my local trading
> standards are telling people who phone up about malfunctioning
> handsets.
>

Simply not true, if you have paid any money for a phone and contract you
are paying for the phone. If they give the phone to you free then it may
be slightly more complicated. But the lump sum you pay up front is to
take away the phone, monthly charges are for airtime. The phone may be
heavily discounted by the network operator, but you still pay for it.
Therefore the sale of goods act must apply. I have a feeling that even
if it is given to you free they still have certain obligations, but I
could be wrong on that.

--
regards, James Luff Gamertag: Lufferov
remove 'nospam' to e-mail
"There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those that understand binary, and those that don't."

What do the networks hope to acheive by altering Nokia's software, other than
a lot of disatified customers as this thread has show?

[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> Surely not if you buy your phone from Orange's website. If you buy it
> from a shop then your recourse would be with the shop as well surely.

Yes but the remedy offered would be the same.
--
Regards
Jon

[email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
> What do the networks hope to acheive by altering Nokia's software, other than
> a lot of disatified customers as this thread has show?

In Oranges case a uniform UI across as many devices from different
manufacturers as possible. This apparently engenders loyalty to the
brand and a kind of "comfort zone" for the less tech-savvy users (I.e.
99% of users)
--
Regards
Jon

"guv" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:14:50 +0100, "M.I.5¾"
> <[email protected]_SPAM.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Fred Finisterre" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> "Alex Heney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> But all you are *entitled* to is repair or replacement, and he said
>>>> Orange are offering a replacement.
>>>
>>> I think you have the right to a refund if you want.
>>>
>>
>>Why? The right of rejection has long passed.
>>
>>Orange has offered a replacement, that is all they are obliged to do.
>
> Which is fine as long as that same fault isnt in the replacement, else
> they have admitted liability and not solved the problem.

Perhaps from a legal standpoint the way forward would be to let them send
the faulty handset, and whilst it may draw things out a bit, complaining
about the fault with that one would offer more evidence to them that it is
indeed the phone.

My brother had a similar scenario with a Nokia and Orange, I think he had
three handsets in the end and *eventually* they caved and let him get a Sony
Ericsson.

--
Sue

"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
>> So question is what are the options for N80 owners? Can we demand the
>> network gives us another phone under our contract with them
>
> Your contract is for the supply of airtime. The phone is explicitly
> separate.
>
> Find yourself another service centre who will flash it with generic.
> There are plenty about. Or sell the phone on eBay while you still can.
>
>> Surely *something* in the Orange contract means I/we can terminate our
>> contracts
>
> Have you USIM cards stopped working? You don't have grounds to cancel
> unfortunately. The terms can be found at www.orange.co.uk/terms
>
>> Surely we have some comeback? Must be a legal obligation for a network
>> operator (three, O2, Vodaphone, T-Mobile, Orange etc) or Nokia to do
>> SOMETHING!!!!!
>
> You could ask Orange for a DMR (different model replacement), you can
> ask for this once you've had 3 or faulty ones of the same model.

This is the avenue my brother pursued, also with a Nokia, a little while
ago. Of course, judging by the people who *are* happy with the handset (it
can't be 100% that are faulty), there's a chance you might get one you can
use happily...

--
Sue

"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
>> Surely not if you buy your phone from Orange's website. If you buy it
>> from a shop then your recourse would be with the shop as well surely.
>
> Yes but the remedy offered would be the same.

At least having bought it from the shop you can maybe exchange the handset
there - test it out to see if it's faulty and show them to be faulty if they
all are.

Well, there's a lot of ifs - IF they still carry them, IF they're all faulty
and easily shown in a store, etc

--
Sue

ACDeag wrote:
> MA formulated on Thursday :
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I, like many others have the N80 on Orange.
>>>
>>> Nokia have released the v4 fix, yet Orange won't approve their version
>>> - leaving all N80 users with buggy phones.
>>>
>>
>> So what bugs are you actually seeing? Or are people just seeing a list
>> of bug fixes by Nokia and wanting to upgrade, even though it may not
>> directly affect them?
>>
>> I can't say I've had any problems with my N80 on Orange, I'm happy
>> with it.
>
>
> I have had no problems with my N80 either, not on Orange, but O2.
>
>

I've experienced a few spurious crashes, a 3 Megapixel camera that's no
better than the 2 Megapixel on my 6680, paint that scratches off from
the phone a bit too quickly, a slider that has become noticeably loose
very quickly, and a bluetooth stack that crashes the phone if you
connect to two devices at the same time, ie, say, GPS and a handsfree kit.

Cya
Simon