When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

Blue wrote:
> "MrPepper11" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> May 12, 2005
> Cellphone Hangup: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?
>
> Is there any movement on this issue toward location of the phone by a

> combination of:
>
> 1. Current satellite location, or
> 2. Last satellite location, or
> 3. Cell tower triangulation location?

Besides the other technological info given...a little practicle tip in
the meantime. If one should ever be on a roadway and need to give E911
location information verbally, look around for a roadmarker. Many roads
have a small metal post with unique road grid number. Seems like every
1/4 to 1 mile or so.

Believe the primary use is by road maintanence crews. I'm not entirely
sure how quickly an emergency dispatcher could cross reference a road
sign, or what access they have to this kind of database??

I don't think it would take long for a county works department to
access this kind of info, during business hours.

-
David

---

› See More: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?

Jer wrote:
> Rick Merrill wrote:
>
>> Jer wrote:
>>
>>> Gordon Burditt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another issue which comes up occasionally, but I've luckily never
>>>> had to deal with it personally: How do I call 911 for another area?
>>>> Example: I'm talking on the phone to my mother (in another state),
>>>> she stops talking, groans, says HELP a couple of times, drops the
>>>> phone, then silence. Assuming I think she might have just had a
>>>> heart attack, how do I get help for her?
>>>>
>>>> Gordon L. Burditt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Having a sister who's an operator, this is easy for me to answer...
>>> in this situation, forget 911, dial "0", when the operator answers,
>>> explain that you have an emergency and need to speak to law
>>> enforcement for medical assistance in your mother's location. They
>>> will make every attempt to connect you to the appropriate authority
>>> and will stay on the line until that happens. Operators have been
>>> providing this level of service for many years and are glad to help
>>> any way they can under these circumstances.
>>>
>>
>> Good advice, except that the context of this thread was VoIP, and most
>> VoIP services do NOT have "operator"! (This is how they lower costs.)
>
>
>
> Another revelation! Is it available as an pay-extra feature?
>

Nope.

Maybe have people at home on call for when you need to talk? mmmmm...

Rick Merrill wrote:
> Jer wrote:
>
>> Rick Merrill wrote:
>>
>>> Jer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gordon Burditt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Another issue which comes up occasionally, but I've luckily never
>>>>> had to deal with it personally: How do I call 911 for another area?
>>>>> Example: I'm talking on the phone to my mother (in another state),
>>>>> she stops talking, groans, says HELP a couple of times, drops the
>>>>> phone, then silence. Assuming I think she might have just had a
>>>>> heart attack, how do I get help for her?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon L. Burditt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having a sister who's an operator, this is easy for me to answer...
>>>> in this situation, forget 911, dial "0", when the operator answers,
>>>> explain that you have an emergency and need to speak to law
>>>> enforcement for medical assistance in your mother's location. They
>>>> will make every attempt to connect you to the appropriate authority
>>>> and will stay on the line until that happens. Operators have been
>>>> providing this level of service for many years and are glad to help
>>>> any way they can under these circumstances.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good advice, except that the context of this thread was VoIP, and
>>> most VoIP services do NOT have "operator"! (This is how they lower
>>> costs.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Another revelation! Is it available as an pay-extra feature?
>>
>
> Nope.
>
> Maybe have people at home on call for when you need to talk? mmmmm...


Dayem! I smell another business opportunity. Woo Woo!

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

David L wrote:
>
> Blue wrote:
>
>>"MrPepper11" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>May 12, 2005
>>Cellphone Hangup: When You Dial 911, Can Help Find You?
>>
>>Is there any movement on this issue toward location of the phone by a
>
>
>>combination of:
>>
>>1. Current satellite location, or
>>2. Last satellite location, or
>>3. Cell tower triangulation location?
>
>
> Besides the other technological info given...a little practicle tip in
> the meantime. If one should ever be on a roadway and need to give E911
> location information verbally, look around for a roadmarker. Many roads
> have a small metal post with unique road grid number. Seems like every
> 1/4 to 1 mile or so.
>
> Believe the primary use is by road maintanence crews. I'm not entirely
> sure how quickly an emergency dispatcher could cross reference a road
> sign, or what access they have to this kind of database??
>
> I don't think it would take long for a county works department to
> access this kind of info, during business hours.
>
> -
> David
>


Here are a few tip references for the geographically-challenged, and
they would be well served to become familiar with how things are done,
especially if one is too embarrassed to stop and ask for directions.

To get started, there are two different methods currently deployed to
number interstate highway exits - mailpost marker system (most states)
and sequential numbering system (the few remaining states).

Some will just have to trust me on this, but take it from the Roadtrip
King, knowing this info has saved somebody's bacon many times, sometimes
even mine.

http://tinyurl.com/c4b85


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

[email protected] wrote:
>It could be if it was there to offer - but the VoIP services don't
>have one to sell.

I'm not sure there would be any purpose to having a VoIP operator.

As far as I can remember, the only times I've called the operator in the last
25 years was to ask for information that I was too lazy to figure out from
the phone book: whether a certain number would be a toll call, how to dial a
certain foreign country, or how to do a conference call.

I just checked: my Vonage help page does have all that info, accessible
reasonably easily.

I'm interested to hear that operators can provide "remote" emergency help.
But I wonder whether the regular 911 people will do that too - and perhaps
more efficiently.

You sure there's still a use for an operator? The old traditional use of an
operator was to plug the cord with your call on it into the right socket.
Those days are long gone.

Garry

FCC Orders 911 Service for VoIP
As expected, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) issued an order
Thursday requiring Internet phone service companies to provide enhanced 911
(E911) emergency calling capabilities to their customers and delivered a
120-day deadline for compliance.

VoIP providers must, by default, deliver all 911 calls to the customer's
local emergency operator. Interconnected VoIP providers also must provide
emergency operators with the call back number and location information of
their customers where the emergency operator is capable of receiving it.

The new demands must be met within 120 days of the official publication of
the order, which is expected by the end of this month.

Regulatory Process Proceeds

The ruling is a response to the rapidly expanding VoIP customer base and
directly impacts providers such as Vonage and EarthLink, as well as cable
companies. It also reflects the FCC's earlier decision to take regulatory
control of Internet-based calling rather than grant that control to states.

Calling the IP-enabled services marketplace "the latest new frontier of our
nation's communications landscape," the FCC cited horror stories brought to
its attention in which VoIP customers dialed 911 but were unable to reach
emergency operators.

"The sad fact is that we have spent so much time splitting hairs about what
is a telecommunications service and what is an information service that we
have endangered public safety," said commissioner Michael Copps in a
statement. "At some point the semantic debates must end and reality must
assert itself -- when customers sign up for a telephone they expect it to
deliver like a telephone."

Cooperation from Carriers Required

Most providers, in anticipation of the decision, have been adding E911
capabilities to their systems and support the FCC. The mandate could *****
trouble, though, for smaller operations without the resources to add
emergency services capabilities.

"EarthLink and other VoIP providers are committed to providing 911 services.
We therefore support FCC and Congressional efforts to ensure public safety
by requiring that VoIP subscribers have prompt access to E911," said Dave
Baker, vice president of law and public policy at EarthLink.

Baker also noted that to meet this objective, the FCC must ensure that
incumbent phone companies provide access to the interfaces needed to deliver
and complete emergency calls.

"We have been given a big obligation to meet in a short time, so it's up to
the Bells to meet their requirements as well," he said.

Action Was Overdue

"The low-end VoIP providers will probably struggle with another regulatory
hurdle to clear, and there could be a shakeup in the industry that may be a
good thing," said IDC analyst Will Stofega. "But this has to be done because
most customers did not realize there was no support for E911 with their
service."

Still, said Stofega, the FCC has been dragging its feet on VoIP regulations
despite determining that it is an interstate communications service.

"They have been talking about this since 1999, but until now have not
offered any rules for operating next-generation phone services," he said.

Vonage announced an agreement Thursday to purchase wireless and wireline
E911 services from SBC and BellSouth (NYSE: BLS - news). And Verizon (NYSE:
VZ - news) recently announced that it will provide E911 calling system to
VoIP service providers and vendors, enabling them to connect their
customers' emergency calls to Public Safety Answering Points (PSAPs).

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...20/bs_nf/35336



<[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Fri, 20 May 2005 19:10:31 -0500, Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Good advice, except that the context of this thread was VoIP, and most
>>> VoIP services do NOT have "operator"! (This is how they lower costs.)
>>
>>
>>Another revelation! Is it available as an pay-extra feature?
>
> It could be if it was there to offer - but the VoIP services don't
> have one to sell.

Garry W wrote:

[snip]

> You sure there's still a use for an operator? The old traditional
> use of an operator was to plug the cord with your call on it into
> the right socket. Those days are long gone.

There are many occasions when an operator is useful, although I can't
think of one for a VoIP service.

An operator can set up a personal call, whereby you are only charged when
the person you want comes to the phone. Probably not much use for this
nowadays, with mobile and similar services, but some business users might
still find it useful.

Also reverse charge calls require operator assistance. There is an
automatic version around here in the UK now but it incurs a hefty
additional charge so is best avoided.

I'm sure someone else can find a few more uses for the poor old operator
before she's put out to pasture ;-)

Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:
> Garry W wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>You sure there's still a use for an operator? The old traditional
>>use of an operator was to plug the cord with your call on it into
>>the right socket. Those days are long gone.
>
>
> There are many occasions when an operator is useful, although I can't
> think of one for a VoIP service.
>
> An operator can set up a personal call, whereby you are only charged when
> the person you want comes to the phone. Probably not much use for this
> nowadays, with mobile and similar services, but some business users might
> still find it useful.
>
> Also reverse charge calls require operator assistance. There is an
> automatic version around here in the UK now but it incurs a hefty
> additional charge so is best avoided.
>
> I'm sure someone else can find a few more uses for the poor old operator
> before she's put out to pasture ;-)
>
> Ivor
>
>

You have put your finger(s) on another issue with VoIP: you cannot place
person-to-person NOR collect-calls nor ANY other type of
operator-assisted call. That's one reason costs can stay low.

Actually, I don't even know if I can receive on a VoIP line a collect
call. (Happily, all my kids are grown, flown and on their own.)

Jer <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm also now wondering who's going to take the hit for hotels when a
>tenant plugs their internet phone into the wall jack. The hi-speed
>internet service at some hotels requires the tenant to occasionally
>re-certify their in-room internet service via an auth code provided by
>the front desk when necessary. And it's not always free.

So what? The technical issues of mapping a hotel connection to the hotel
and room number are trivial compared to, say, determining a cell phone's
location. Internet cafes, libraries, and all sorts of public access points
will have the same issue. I guess they'll either have to figure it out or
quit providing VoIP to those locations.

VoIP providers got into the business of providing public telephone service,
but they didn't bother providing the whole package and you see the results.
It's easy to undercut the other guys when you're allowed to skip the hard
parts. Well, now they can't, and it's about time. All the FCC is saying is
they have to quit being half-baked telephone companies and become real ones.

In message <[email protected]> "Ivor Jones"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Garry W wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> You sure there's still a use for an operator? The old traditional
>> use of an operator was to plug the cord with your call on it into
>> the right socket. Those days are long gone.
>
>There are many occasions when an operator is useful, although I can't
>think of one for a VoIP service.
>
>An operator can set up a personal call, whereby you are only charged when
>the person you want comes to the phone. Probably not much use for this
>nowadays, with mobile and similar services, but some business users might
>still find it useful.

Sure, but the per-minute charge for a person-to-person call, billed over
the entire call is often 10x-50x a direct dialed call. As a result,
unless you're calling 10-50 times to reach the person AND only talk for
one minute, it's almost always cheaper to make the call yourself.

If you are calling frequently enough for it to be worth the money, it
will very quickly become cheaper to hire a secretary to make the calls
for you.


--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

Rick Merrill <[email protected]> wrote:
>You have put your finger(s) on another issue with VoIP: you cannot place
>person-to-person NOR collect-calls nor ANY other type of
>operator-assisted call. That's one reason costs can stay low.

I'm afraid those are things of the past, too. The original purpose of
person-to-person, as I recall, was to avoid having to pay the long-distance
charge if the person you wanted to talk to wasn't even there. This was of
interest when long distance cost an arm and a leg. Nowadays when the
surcharge for the operator is a hundred times greater than the charge for the
long distance call itself, person-to-person just doesn't make much sense.

Collect calls are useful from a pay phone. Or, rather, they =used= to be
useful -- back when pay phones were still plentiful. Back when pay phones
didn't have built-in "dial anywhere" deals. Back before calling cards were
available really cheap in every convenience store. Back before you could talk
to your automobile directly.

Only people I've heard of who still call collect are the prison inmates.

>Actually, I don't even know if I can receive on a VoIP line a collect
>call. (Happily, all my kids are grown, flown and on their own.)

The kids I know that are anywhere near grown seem to have all acquired their
own cell phones...

Garry

Rick Merrill <[email protected]> writes:
> You have put your finger(s) on another issue with VoIP: you cannot
> place person-to-person NOR collect-calls nor ANY other type of
> operator-assisted call. That's one reason costs can stay low.

When you are calling for 2cents or less per minute do you really care
if you get the wrong person or of the call is collect? The whole idea
of operator-assisted calls only made sense when the calls had
substantial per minute fees.

-wolfgang
--
Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/

Carey Gregory wrote:
> Jer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm also now wondering who's going to take the hit for hotels when a
>>tenant plugs their internet phone into the wall jack. The hi-speed
>>internet service at some hotels requires the tenant to occasionally
>>re-certify their in-room internet service via an auth code provided by
>>the front desk when necessary. And it's not always free.
>
>
> So what? The technical issues of mapping a hotel connection to the hotel
> and room number are trivial compared to, say, determining a cell phone's
> location. Internet cafes, libraries, and all sorts of public access points
> will have the same issue. I guess they'll either have to figure it out or
> quit providing VoIP to those locations.
>
> VoIP providers got into the business of providing public telephone service,
> but they didn't bother providing the whole package and you see the results.
> It's easy to undercut the other guys when you're allowed to skip the hard
> parts. Well, now they can't, and it's about time. All the FCC is saying is
> they have to quit being half-baked telephone companies and become real ones.
>


Again, please don't misunderstand, I'm all for inovation, but can open,
worms everywhere.

One worm is when a VoIP client is in a hotel with in-room hi-speed
internet. Plugging in a VoIP adapter is easy enough, and in some cases
that's all that's necessary. However, in others, the hotel tenant is
required to re-certify their continued expectation of use by negotiating
a webpage that requires a code be manually typed in from a connected PC
- the code is happily provided by the front desk upon check-in, and for
subsequent days. I was in one a few weeks ago where each certification
period was only good for 12 hours before a new code was required from
the front desk. If my cert period expired in the middle of a session -
it died regardless of activity level - and curiously there was no
in-room info placard that carried a clue. VoIP clients who aren't aware
of this shouldn't expect their VoIP service to always be available under
these situations. If one is expecting to make or receive important VoIP
calls when out-of-pocket, one should be aware of these issues.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

>I'm also now wondering who's going to take the hit for hotels when a
>tenant plugs their internet phone into the wall jack. The hi-speed
>internet service at some hotels requires the tenant to occasionally
>re-certify their in-room internet service via an auth code provided by
>the front desk when necessary. And it's not always free.

I think that if I were the hotel, I would put a sticker on the real
phone next to the Ethernet jack saying "in case of emergency, dial 911
on this phone."

The goal here is to provide working 911 to people who need it. I have
never seen a hotel room with an ethernet jack but no phone, and I
doubt that anyone else has, either.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 22:03:28 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Also reverse charge calls require operator assistance. There is an
> >automatic version around here in the UK now but it incurs a hefty
> >additional charge so is best avoided.
>
> There are automated "operator" services in the US and Canada as well.
> Instead of dialling 1 before an area code you dial 01 and when you are
> through dialling you get a menu with prompts. Depending on the
> service some have you key 12 for collect (reverse charges) or for
> third number or calling/credit card it's all automated.
>
> Since they started to charge for directory assistance (enquiries) here
> in the states I can count on one hand the number of times I've used it
> in the last 26 years. Heck most of the time even if you do use
> directory assistance they have got it wrong!

Which is precisely why I block 411 with my Mitel SMART-1 controller. It
just wasn't worth Vonage's buck a pop to get an incorrect listing.