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  1. #46
    Kurt
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > > Mac fanatics don't care. They have the ability to stick their heads in
    > > > the sand and still breathe.

    > >
    > > If only the Mac fanatics buy the initial iPhone offering then it will be
    > > a spectacular failure.

    >
    > Oh, I'm not so sure about that.
    >
    > It also depends on supply. If the supply is short, as I expect, then
    > Cingular would be a fool not to constrain the demand in some way.
    >
    > Regardless, there are plenty of the "faithful" who will pay any amount
    > of money for it.


    Let them do the beta testing.

    --
    To reply by email, remove the word "space"



    See More: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"




  2. #47
    SMS
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    Kurt wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>> Mac fanatics don't care. They have the ability to stick their heads in
    >>>> the sand and still breathe.
    >>> If only the Mac fanatics buy the initial iPhone offering then it will be
    >>> a spectacular failure.

    >> Oh, I'm not so sure about that.
    >>
    >> It also depends on supply. If the supply is short, as I expect, then
    >> Cingular would be a fool not to constrain the demand in some way.
    >>
    >> Regardless, there are plenty of the "faithful" who will pay any amount
    >> of money for it.

    >
    > Let them do the beta testing.


    That's my feeling too. It's like buying the first year of a new car.

    Personally, my feeling on a PDA phone is that it will actually have to
    replace my PDA. The first version of the iPhone lacks too much PDA
    functionality. It's a combination iPod/World Phone/mini-web pad, but the
    closed platform limits functionality too much. There's also the issue of
    the phone. While the N95 will be great in Europe, the best coverage, for
    both voice and data, in the U.S., is on CDMA carriers, at least for now.
    Hopefully in a couple of years it'll all shake out, and a nice PDA phone
    with GPS, 5 megapixel camera, WiFi and WiMax, will be $300.



  3. #48
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:23:12 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> --but on this one, where he claims that "The analysts say that Cingular
    >> did a very good job of retaining ATTWS customers and ended up with a low
    >> churn level," he doesn't bother to document.

    >
    >At the time of the merger, both Cingular and AT&T Wireless had extremely
    >high churn, and the churn continued at high levels for a while as the
    >old AT&T customers left in high numbers.


    Churn actually went down.

    >You don't have to look at what
    >the analysts said, you can look at the actual numbers!


    Yep, and I suggest you actually do so.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  4. #49
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:49:19 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >While the first iPhone has some deficiencies, the future models will
    >correct those problems, i.e., adding HSDPA, adding a memory card slot,
    >etc. ...


    Your speculation. It remains to be seen. Apple has had some great
    successes, but it has also had many notable flops.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  5. #50
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:57:38 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >... While the N95 will be great in Europe, the best coverage, for
    >both voice and data, in the U.S., is on CDMA carriers, at least for now.


    Actually GSM, although any such generalization is both silly and
    meaningless -- what matters is actual coverage in the actual areas you
    care about, which for me (not necessarily others) makes GSM a no-brainer
    since CDMA coverage is significantly poorer.

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  6. #51
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:10:41 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >... In my area, the San Francisco Bay
    >Area, Verizon is so far ahead of the other three carriers, that there is
    >no competition when it comes to choosing a carrier based on coverage.


    In fact AT&T/Cingular generally has the best coverage in the San
    Francisco Bay Area, although what really matters of course is actual
    coverage in areas you actually care about -- "all generalizations are
    false".

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  7. #52
    John Navas
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:25:57 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    wrote in <[email protected]>:

    >Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Consumers have wised up when it comes to choosing carriers. They no
    >>> longer look only at price and features, and they now understand the huge
    >>> differences in quality of coverage. In my area, the San Francisco Bay
    >>> Area, Verizon is so far ahead of the other three carriers, that there is
    >>> no competition when it comes to choosing a carrier based on coverage.

    >>
    >> And yet Navas, in the same geographical area, says otherwise. He says
    >> Cingular is the best.
    >>
    >> Gee, who'd'a thunk it?

    >
    >Sorry, I go by all the independent surveys, which have very high sample
    >sizes and extremely low margins of error.


    What you actually do is make things up that are demonstrably wrong, as
    in claims of coverage completely at odds with Verizon's own coverage
    maps. (Oops.)

    As for the surveys, they actually show relatively small differences that
    are comparable to the margins of error.

    >Navas goes by a sample of one,
    >himself. Amusingly, not even Cingular itself claims a coverage
    >advantage. They have the "fewest dropped calls" campaign, but they are
    >very careful to never claim the widest coverage. Of course the "fewest
    >dropped calls" claim has been proven to be untrue...


    Really? Proof? Or just another made up claim?

    --
    Best regards, FAQ FOR CINGULAR WIRELESS:
    John Navas <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cingular_Wireless_FAQ>



  8. #53
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:10:41 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    > wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>... In my area, the San Francisco Bay
    >>Area, Verizon is so far ahead of the other three carriers, that there is
    >>no competition when it comes to choosing a carrier based on coverage.

    >
    > In fact AT&T/Cingular generally has the best coverage in the San
    > Francisco Bay Area, although what really matters of course is actual
    > coverage in areas you actually care about -- "all generalizations are
    > false".
    >


    Including your own- you have no proof of your claim, brainiac.



  9. #54
    Scott
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:25:57 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
    > wrote in <[email protected]>:
    >
    >>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
    >>> In article <[email protected]>,
    >>> SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Consumers have wised up when it comes to choosing carriers. They no
    >>>> longer look only at price and features, and they now understand the
    >>>> huge differences in quality of coverage. In my area, the San
    >>>> Francisco Bay Area, Verizon is so far ahead of the other three
    >>>> carriers, that there is no competition when it comes to choosing a
    >>>> carrier based on coverage.
    >>>
    >>> And yet Navas, in the same geographical area, says otherwise. He
    >>> says Cingular is the best.
    >>>
    >>> Gee, who'd'a thunk it?

    >>
    >>Sorry, I go by all the independent surveys, which have very high
    >>sample sizes and extremely low margins of error.

    >
    > What you actually do is make things up that are demonstrably wrong, as
    > in claims of coverage completely at odds with Verizon's own coverage
    > maps. (Oops.)
    >
    > As for the surveys, they actually show relatively small differences
    > that are comparable to the margins of error.
    >
    >>Navas goes by a sample of one,
    >>himself. Amusingly, not even Cingular itself claims a coverage
    >>advantage. They have the "fewest dropped calls" campaign, but they are
    >>very careful to never claim the widest coverage. Of course the "fewest
    >>dropped calls" claim has been proven to be untrue...

    >
    > Really? Proof? Or just another made up claim?
    >


    Proven many times in this forum, Novice. Now why don't you simply shut up
    and go away.



  10. #55
    Interpage Network Services Inc.
    Guest

    Re: Cingular/ATTWS Unlimited 8PM Off Peak "For Life"

    Recently, "John Navas" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >As also has been noted on many of the groups, Cingular/ATT has been doing
    > >EVERYTHING under the sun to try to convert TDMA customers to GSM, other

    than
    > >offering them the same plan they have always had under TDMA, but with a

    GSM
    > >phone.

    >
    > Three simple facts:
    > 1. AT&T Wireless is no more, due in part of bad business like that.
    > 2. AT&T/Cingular has no obligation to continue AT&T Wireless deals.


    It probably does on a multitude of levels, legal and otherwise; generally,
    service contracts survive post-merger/acquisition (bankruptcy issues being
    one area of exception) in such cases. (I have not studied how ATTWS was
    "merged" with Cingular and then rebranded themselves as AT&T, but generally,
    two existing companies can not form "NewCompany" to escape contractual and
    other liabilities of the respective incipient firms. Indeed, many states
    have specific statuatory requirements outside of the UCC/common law/etc. for
    specific (generally regulated) industries, such as insurance, for example,
    which specifically iterate this.

    Regardless, my argument was not prefaced upon a perceived -contractual-
    obligation (not that I disclaim it; there may be issues with the "for life"
    approaching a contract in perpetuity and other issues which are not
    pertinent with respect to the instant issue), but rather than given that
    AT&T/Cingular made a business decision to migrate to TDMA, they have, to an
    extent, engaged in deception and failed to fully disclose what the
    conversion will mean to existing TDMA accounts, and that they are in a
    not-so-on-the-level way trying to get TDMA customers to sign up for GSM
    contracts, making it APPEAR as if the GSM accounts will effectively be a
    continuation of the TDMA service with just a different phone, when in fact
    there are certain material and potential adverse changes to the TDMA service
    attached to these new contracts which needn't be so.

    For example, a recent bill insert indicates (usual verbiage about how TDMA
    is going to be disconnected soon and how you need to switch right away to
    maintain your account) that TDMA customers should move over to GSM to
    preserve all their current features, like voicemail, text messaging,
    nationwide roaming and "Rollover" minutes (of which we as TDMA customers
    have none).

    What they do not say is that IF you do enter into a new agreement for GSM
    with them and bind to a 1 or 2 year contract (which is required), you will
    loose the following:

    1. Roaming on certain carriers in RSA-ish type areas (and analog fallback as
    well,
    useful as a last resort for 911, assuming that post 1Q 2008 some
    carriers still maintain
    analog ofr the FCC extends the deadline)
    2. Unlimited reception of SMS and E-Mails from anyone at no additional cost
    3. Unlimited off-peak starting at 8PM.

    As many other people have mentioned, other than the analog fallback,
    provisions could be made to facilitate these issues in furtherance of a more
    seamless TDMA to GSM migration, but ATT/Cingular opted not to. There is no
    technical NEED for ATT/Cingular to not offer these options to TDMA customers
    as long as they migrate to GSM and stay on such plans; ATT/Cingular simply
    chose not to do so and appears to be trying to get people to convert without
    effectively full disclosure.

    (And please don't suggest that they "read the fine print"... People should;
    they don't, and the the law generally recognizes this in terms of what are
    effectively consumer adhesion contracts. In any case, material changes which
    affect service should not be hidden in the fine print (if at all), and if
    carriers like Verizon can offer essentially full disclosure, so can
    Cingular.)

    (Verizon's termination of analog service notices indciate clearly the old
    plan and features and what the default new plan will be, and is very clear
    as to the difference if any which the new/default plan will offer. The
    _default_ plan also carries no contractual obligation (if the customer
    provides his own digital phone or if nothing is done in terms of older
    dual-mode digital equipment. We have some problems with how Verizon is
    trying to push their analog shut down as well, but it is nowhere as bad as
    Cingular...)

    > >1. Cingular has totally messed up the conversion from TDMA to GSM. ANY

    other
    > >company, us (Interpage), Volvo, Macy's, Joe's Fish Store, whatever, would
    > >all come up with a plan in the event that a service had to be changed or
    > >eliminated which mitigates the net effect to the customer and tries to
    > >preserve as closely as possible (or even improve upon) the levels of

    service
    > >previously enjoyed.

    >
    > Nonsense: All businesses make decisions about what makes good business
    > and what doesn't.


    Gee... Thanks, I never knew that...

    Regardless, I think one of the points I made was that it was hard to
    understand what business sense this made, as it is treating old customers
    like they walked off the street, and gives old customers who would, with a
    better transition process, never think twice about continuing with Cingular,
    reason to pause and perhaps investigate other carriers. Perhaps Cingular has
    some reason for this (and "SMS" provided an interesting one in that it
    lowers ARPU, which makes more sense than any other rational explanation I've
    heard before; however, I think they are currently signing up new users even
    at the $29.95 per month level, and thus it is baflling why they would not
    want to keep old-TDMA subscribers at the $50.00 level...)

    > >2. Cingular doesn't appear to care about the reportedly 5 million or so

    TDMA
    > >customers. ...

    >
    > Nonsense: It offers them the same deals it offers to everyone else.


    Ummm... yeah, right -- "Hi, you're very important to us; we would LOVE to
    offer you, our loyal customer for 5 years, the EXACT same deal that we are
    going to offer this bum off the street who managed to scrape up enough cash
    for a pre-paid SIM card and "subsidy" phone..." Makes me feel REALLY cared
    for and that the years of service with them are highly valued and
    appreciated...

    > >3. Cingular seems to think that TDMA customers should in part fund the
    > >conversion to TDMA: ...

    >
    > Nonsense: Those customers must buy their own phones just like everyone
    > else.


    You see, nornmally when you say "nonsense" you are supposed to say something
    in opposition, while in this case it appears to be in apposition as thus
    substantiates my point. But whatever..

    > AT&T Wireless is over. TDMA is over.
    > You're beating dead horses. Time to move on.


    No one here is suggesting that they need to remain, or even that TDMA
    service should be maintained; the points raised in the previous post and
    here are that the "transition" is beng poorly handled, Cingular's/ATT's
    representations are in part deceptive (or lacking in full disclosure), they
    are onerous on existing customers and do not seem to indicate that they do
    not fully appreciate TDMA customers' tenure with ATT/Cingular, and generally
    does not seem to encourage customers to stay on by making it easy for them
    to do so. And that's it.

    I've seen no evidence in the previous post to the contrary, and from what
    many others have written, it appears that other are suffering similar fates
    and are not too happy with the way Cingular/ATT is handling the process
    either.

    Regards,

    -Doug

    [email protected] (remove the first three letters of the alphabete
    to e-mail)

    Interpage Network Services Inc.
    (510) 315-2750
    http://www.interpage.net







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