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- 07-31-2005, 12:49 PM #46Bob ScheurleGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
>suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
>suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.
I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
35 miles.
--
Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
[email protected] | rich writing software."
Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980
› See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
- 07-31-2005, 12:58 PM #47Isaiah BeardGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
John Navas wrote:
> [POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
>
> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:41:18 -0400,
> Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
>>out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
>>GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
>>by broadband ISPs.
> In a word, WiMAX.
That word does not answer my question, but thanks for trying anyway.
--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
- 07-31-2005, 01:08 PM #48David SGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:19:24 -0400, "jfitz" <[email protected]> chose to
add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:
>"Donald Newcomb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The problem is really not one of analog vs. digital but rather very low
>> power & no antenna vs. high power & good antenna. The only reason that
>> this
>> problem exists is that the wireless carriers only care about the 99% who
>> live and work in cities & towns (where the wireless executives live and
>> work) and could care less about folks who live and work in the boonies.
>
>So the "99%" should subsidize the tremendous cost of building cell towers
>for those who have CHOSEN to live in the boonies?
You mean those who have CHOSEN to work their asses off to produce the food
you eat in your city? And those who have CHOSEN to cut down the trees to
provide the lumber for your house and the pulp for the newspaper you read?
And those who have CHOSEN to mine the metals that your car/bus/train are
made of and the coal that lights your city? And those who have CHOSEN to
move all that stuff to your city?
Or don't those people deserve to have cellular service just as good as
yours?
--
David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
"STOP: DRIVE SIDEWAYS" - detour sign in Kyushi, Japan
- 07-31-2005, 01:38 PM #49GeorgeGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
David S wrote:
>>So the "99%" should subsidize the tremendous cost of building cell towers
>>for those who have CHOSEN to live in the boonies?
>
>
> You mean those who have CHOSEN to work their asses off to produce the food
> you eat in your city? And those who have CHOSEN to cut down the trees to
> provide the lumber for your house and the pulp for the newspaper you read?
> And those who have CHOSEN to mine the metals that your car/bus/train are
> made of and the coal that lights your city? And those who have CHOSEN to
> move all that stuff to your city?
>
But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
developments.
> Or don't those people deserve to have cellular service just as good as
> yours?
>
- 07-31-2005, 01:41 PM #50Bob ScheurleGuest
Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:26:54 GMT, CellGuy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
>
>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.
No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
I can't even begin to explain it, but see
http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).
--
Bob Scheurle | "There's nobody getting
[email protected] | rich writing software."
Remove X's and dashes | -- Bill Gates, March 1980
- 07-31-2005, 02:04 PM #51John NavasGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:58:49 -0400,
Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
>John Navas wrote:
>>
>> In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:41:18 -0400,
>> Isaiah Beard <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
>>>out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
>>>GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
>>>by broadband ISPs.
>
>> In a word, WiMAX.
>
>That word does not answer my question, ...
Suit yourself.
--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>
- 07-31-2005, 02:05 PM #52JerGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
Isaiah Beard wrote:
> What I don't understand is why cellular carriers don't start building
> out advancaed digital to rural areas, and advertising services such as
> GPRS, EDGE or 1xRTT/EVDO to these areas that are typically underserved
> by broadband ISPs. Data services are typically sold at a premium, and
> one would think that at least some people living in these areas might be
> interested in broadband enough to take a "fixed wireless" solution from
> a cell carrier in lieu of nonexistent DSL or cable in these parts.
> People paying such a premium to get reliable data would better justify
> the cost of the building than just selling the voice service alone.
It is my impression that some carriers may be more tuned to their client
base then some give them credit for. My own relatives living and
working in the boonies couldn't care less about anything other than what
they've got now - AMPS - it works for what they need it for and that's
that. Visiting them for for suppers has offered opportunities to
discuss this issue at length, and I can't say they're wrong with their
perspective. They honestly don't give a rat's ass about internet stuff,
voice mail, etc, even conference calling isn't on their list of
necessities. By the time they've finished their days work in the
fields, it's family time and all else waits until tomorrow, or next week
- even analog B&W TV suits one uncle of mine, until the sun sets and
bang! it's bedtime - 4am is time for coffee and the cows.
Okay, this is on the extreme end of the stick, but it may surprise some
that this type of person still exists in a number of rural areas (8 mi.
SW of Vernon, TX), and their particular skew on life is like another
planet compared to today's urban lifestyles. The only time my uncle has
seen more than five cars on Vernon's main street together was during a
parade. Their idea of a big city is Wichita Falls that has those ugly
skyscrapers. "GPRS? Wot'n tarnayshun is dat?" I told him... and
then... "wot wud I do widdat?" The internet Pops. "Innernet and dat
computerin stuff is fer fokes dat ain't got nuff to do".
They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
like them. So, how would any provider expect to sell anything other
than the most basic services to these people? Answer? They're not, so
spending the first dime for more just isn't going to happen for a while
yet. Fortunately, their wireless service comes from Vernon, well within
range of digital, so a new cell phone *is* in the cards.
--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'
- 07-31-2005, 02:17 PM #53John NavasGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:49:22
GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:19:28 GMT, John Navas <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>The only real inherent distance limitation in CDMA is signal power (given
>>suitable terrain). Given the right base station, 3 watt device power, and a
>>suitable device antenna, range of 50-80 miles is possible.
>
>I believe you are incorrect; propagation delays limit CDMA to about
>35 miles.
<http://www.abc.net.au/http/sfist/cdma.htm>:
...
The theoretical limit of CDMA is set by a key signal-processing chip
in the base-station which has the job of searching incoming signals
for codes from the surrounding handsets. Radio signals take a finite
time to travel distance, and so there's always a round-trip delay in
signals reaching handsets and returning to the base-station.
The expected maximum delay is known as the 'search-window', and the
chip is programmed to search only during this time for the individual
handset codes. The less time the signal processor spends searching,
the better, because it has other things to do in processing the
codes.
In the US, where analog remains to fill in the long-range coverage
requirements of Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, etc. a CDMA window
corresponding to 57 kilometres is deemed to be adequate. But not for
Australia where AMPS must disappear.
What Nortel (the Telstra contractor) proposes to do here is to add
extra chips (up to three) in their base-stations, each designed to
hunt for incoming codes in a series of delayed search-windows. They
hope, therefore, to have base-stations which can handle signals from
transmitters up to 200 kilometres away.
So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
...
--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>
- 07-31-2005, 02:34 PM #54John NavasGuest
Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]
In <[email protected]> on Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:41:11
GMT, Bob Scheurle <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:26:54 GMT, CellGuy <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the maximum range for CDMA is about 35 miles.
>>
>>CDMA's range is limited only by the signal strength between the phone and
>>the closest tower. Some users have reported ranges over 50 miles.
>
>No, it's not that simple. There are issues relating to the chip timing.
>I can't even begin to explain it, but see
>http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
>table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
>currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).
<http://www.nortelnetworks.com/corporate/news/newsreleases/1999c/8_5_9999287_Boomer.html>
August 5, 1999
Nortel Networks Extended Range CDMA "Boomer" Cell Ready for Prime Time
Telstra Will Deploy First to Help Meet Australia's Unique Rural Coverage Needs
DALLAS - Nortel Networks* [NYSE/TSE: NT] announced commercial availability of
the industry's longest-range 800 MHz cdmaOne* base station - the Nortel
Networks CDMA Rural Cell.
Designed to improve the economics of rural digital cellular service, the
Nortel Networks CDMA Rural Cell can provide a coverage radius up to 180
kilometers under suitable conditions, more than 10 times the range of a
typical CDMA base station.
Nicknamed "Boomer" Cell, this pioneering technology was first demonstrated in
March at Nortel Networks' Wireless Solutions lab in Ottawa, Ontario. Recent
field trials with Telstra in Australia have achieved coverage in excess of 120
kilometers on land and 130 kilometers for marine service under typical
conditions, using standard CDMA handsets and car kits.
[MORE]
Nortel's CDMA "Boomer" Cell is also deployed in China.
--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>
- 07-31-2005, 05:16 PM #55LarryGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
Jer <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> They're convinced they don't need it and they're never gonna buy
> anything they can't use, and there's a bunch of folks out there just
> like them.
Millions like them....even in the cities.
One thing overlooked here is the POWER the man you describe has. Notice
his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
Beirut's? Wonder why that is? HIS congressman only represents 24000
people in that huge district. Everyone there KNOWS how he votes, too. If
he votes "wrong", say with Verizon Wireless or some other corporate
fatcats, well, they'll get EVEN in the next election...Just try them.
AMPS will be on the air for a long time, whether you technokiddies like it
or not. I DOES just work better across the land. Those boys driving the
tractors and feeding your sorry asses know what works...AMPS works for them
just fine. Change comes slow in the country. It took them YEARS to get
those tractors off 2-way FM onto IMTS or AMPS.
--
Larry
- 07-31-2005, 05:20 PM #56LarryGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
news:OlaHe.6662$p%[email protected]:
> So far this has only been laboratory simulation. However the idea was
> recently tested in America over a 100 kilometre link, but using a
> different radio frequency (the PCS band of 1.9GHz).
> ...
>
>
What difference does all this mean? A 150mw, 800 Mhz transmitter has a
range of 4-5 miles, less if there's anything in the way like PINE TREES,
nature's natural dummy load/attenuator. 1900 Mhz has a range of 2 miles or
the first tree it comes to.
50 miles on CDMA? What the hell are they running, a 50 watt linear and
100' tower-mounted beam? It's sure not a 150mw Chinese toyphone with a
little plastic antenna, no matter what modulation scheme is on it.
Cellular propagation isn't magic.
--
Larry
- 07-31-2005, 05:23 PM #57LarryGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
[email protected]:
> But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
> made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
> electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
> farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
> developments.
>
You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
Dave is right on with his post.
(Oh, Large Shrimp is $2/pound, heads-on, coming off the boats...(c
--
Larry
- 07-31-2005, 05:49 PM #58LarryGuest
Re: range, was: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
news:b37He.6627$p%[email protected]:
> The critical issue there is height above the water. Otherwise the
> signal would be blocked by the curvature of the earth. It's why
> lighthouses need to be tall.
>
Mast is 55' up. Sailboat.
NO boat should go offshore without a registered 406 Mhz GPS-enabled
EPIRB....we don't. Accuracy of the fix is 1 meter...
If you're interested in marine technology, go to Google and search on AIS,
the new digital VHF Automatic Identification System that's already
implemented on 300+ gross tons ships. Unlike Radar, it shows you who he
is, where he is (exactly from GPS), his
course/speed/destination/ETA/radio call/ship
name/length/width/draft/MMSI for your GMDSS/everything but the first mate's
underwear size. Check it out...
http://emmel.alfahosting.org/english/receiver_en.htm
http://www.acrelectronics.com/global...obalwatch.html
http://www.panbo.com/
http://www.sinequanonth.co.za/tbs.htm
Shore-based transponders and repeaters will soon be transmitting data
streams to put navigation markers/bouys/obstructions on AIS displays across
their service areas. Truly amazing technology. In a waterway, unlike
line-of-sight radar, you can "see" around the bend what ships/boats are
around there. I'm monitoring it here and you can see it on the net at:
http://aisfree.aislive.com/Influx.aspx
http://emit.demon.co.uk/webcam/map.php
http://www.navcom.no/aislive/
Ah, I see "Highland Navigator" has just left Bergen Harbour, Norway...(c;
--
Larry
- 07-31-2005, 05:53 PM #59The Ghost of General LeeGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:16:57 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:
>Notice
>his rural road gets paved every few years when your city street looks like
>Beirut's? Wonder why that is? HIS congressman only represents 24000
>people in that huge district.
Well, I'll be damned. You are just as ignorant about Congressional
apportionment as you are about so many other issues. Districts are
drawn according to census counts, not land size.
There is *NO* congressional district in this country that only has
24,000 people. Not even 240,000. The average is somewhere around
645,000. The smallest is probably Wyoming at around 500,000.
Here's a clue:
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/tab01.txt
Enjoy.
- 07-31-2005, 06:04 PM #60HighGuest
Re: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones
Larry wrote:
> George <[email protected]> wrote in news:fb-dnSUhh-wJtXDfRVn-
> [email protected]:
>
>
>>But that arguement is an old one and not valid today. At one time it
>>made sense to subsidize farmers and others so they could could use
>>electricity to refrigerate the milk or have lights in the barn but the
>>farms have been replaced by Mcmansions and gated community housing
>>developments.
>>
>
>
> You need to get out of that block of apartments and find out where your
> food chain comes from. Hint - It's NOT Wall Street.
>
I agree, city people don't have a clue. THEY SUCK!
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