Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
news:hbsHe.6762$p%[email protected]:

> Those maps are for WISP (Wireless Internet Service Provider), not
> cellular.
>
>

Those maps are EXACTLY what an 800 or 1900 Mhz cellular phone cell terrain
map looks like.

--
Larry

---

› See More: Move to keep Analog Cell Phones

John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
news:36tHe.6787$p%[email protected]:

> I shake my head and chuckle when Usenet ranters presume to take on
> those of us with real experience and expertise.
>

No AIS yet?

--
Larry

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:41:22 -0400,
Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:W3sHe.6756$p%[email protected]:
>
>> You're badly misinformed. The Nortel "Boomer" Cell (and similar
>> technology from other suppliers) does work and is deployed in the real
>> world.
>
>What's its receiver sensitivity?

Ask Nortel.

>How can it hear tiny cellphones buried in
>the thermal noise in the middle of the day?

That's a joke, right?

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:42:11 -0400,
Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:hbsHe.6762$p%[email protected]:
>
>> Those maps are for WISP (Wireless Internet Service Provider), not
>> cellular.
>
>Those maps are EXACTLY what an 800 or 1900 Mhz cellular phone cell terrain
>map looks like.

Nope.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --Gene Spafford

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on 1 Aug 2005
14:34:18 -0700, "Donald N" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Have we gotten OT, or what?

No kidding! LOL

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea - massive,
difficult to redirect, awe inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." --Gene Spafford

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:44:36 -0400,
Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:36tHe.6787$p%[email protected]:
>
>> I shake my head and chuckle when Usenet ranters presume to take on
>> those of us with real experience and expertise.
>
>No AIS yet?

Nope. We're a 52' racing sailboat, not an oil tanker, and AIS other than
Class A is still under development.

--
Best regards,
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/>

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." [Alexander Pope]
"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant,
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." [Mark Twain]

"Bob Scheurle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I can't even begin to explain it, but see
> http://www.howcdmaworks.com/intro/132v3.pdf pages 95-97. I believe the
> table on page 96 goes up to the maximum distance for the CDMA system
> currently used, 34.3 miles (55.2 km).

I don't see where that says anything about maximum range. It just gives
examples of the number of "chips" that need to be searched for handoffs.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

Hi John,

Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
Marine. [bottom of post]
Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
start talking on the CDMA side?

The US carriers are going to have to make very similar deployments with
boomer towers in rural areas, if they ever expect to turn off analog.
Australia uses the same kind of cellular phones and the same
frequencies, so it's not a great leap to expect similar solutions be
used in this country.
OZ just turned off analog already, by legislative decree, and carriers
in the US have not been forced to address this issue.

The FCC has forced GPS location technologies on the cellular industry,
in the interest of public safety. I believe a strong case can be made
for the life saving benefits of basic, cellular voice service in rural
areas, both for locals and travelers. Probably too obvious a point for
government bureaucrats and too expensive a proposition for the Cellcos
to even acknowledge.

What is Cingular's position on current TDMA/Analog rural customers, who
are not covered by GSM yet, but can only upgrade to a GSM handset/plan?
Apparently, GAIT (GSM/TDMA/analog) plans are no longer offered,
allthough the handsets abound on Ebay?

The only other option for rural coverage is a Satellite phone. Sat plan
prices have come down to levels similar to cellular service 6-8+ years
ago, $500 handset. $65/150 minutes per month. These Sat handsets can
also support dual CDMA bands/ANALOG or come in GSM versions.

Globalstar is modest premium over cellular service, for those who can
not afford to be without a mobile communication device.

http://www.globalstarusa.com/en/airtime/voicepricing/


As expected TDMA spectrum is decreasing even more rapidly in many GSM
markets, from anecdotal user reports. Suspect a rough TDMA/analog
phase out for many rural users, but the end, I'm expecting a fabulous
GSM network to rival, and likely exceed VZW's. The competition will be
great for consumers!
Anyone know if Nortel is invoicing "boomer" towers?


Found this interesting _rumor_ about Cingular's technology
apportioning. Sound reasonable?

Insiders at Cingular say, "the target date for nationwide TDMA shutdown
is Dec. 31, 2007, but the actual date will depend on complex revenue
and cost figures as time goes by. At the moment, in most areas of the
country, when converting TDMA towers to GSM, they're leaving
approximately 30% TDMA and 10% analog capacity."

==========================================================
Telstra CDMA Rural Field Trial

http://www.cdg.org/news/may99_rural.html

"Mt Dowe" Base Station, NSW
Overview
This report outlines the results of several tests that were conducted
from the Mt Dowe base station in Northern NSW.
The objectives of the tests were twofold:
Verify the functionality and performance of the CDMA Extended Cell
feature that will be used in the Telstra CDMA network. Normally, CDMA
range is limited to no more than 62 km by mobile and base station
hardware and software. The Nortel Networks extended cell ("Boomer
Cell")
removes this artificial limitation on range.
To compare the coverage between analogue and CDMA at a rural site with
an extended coverage area.
Such sites are common throughout rural Australia.
The basis for comparison was between standard CDMA units (0.2Watt
output
power, no booster) and analogue (3Watt boosted) mobile phones, paying
particular attention to speech quality as well as dropout points.
Mt Dowe is a very high mountain top with an analogue base station
situated 37 km east of Narrabri in northern NSW, and typically provides
vehicle based analogue coverage across wide areas, with distances in
excess of 100 km from the base station..."
[SNIP]

Conclusions

"The two test drives conducted clearly showed that CDMA and analogue
coverage in this area are very comparable, with CDMA marginally better
on one drive route and very similar to analogue along the other.
In all tests CDMA maintained very high call quality.
The tests have demonstrated that using the Nortel Boomer Cell, Telstra
CDMA can provide coverage over land at distances in excess of 100 km,
subject to base station location, height and surrounding terrain.
It was noted that the distances achieved were consistent with the radio
path horizon and intervening terrain in this area, beyond which earth
curvature limits the radio signals."

==========================================================
MARINE TEST (complete) at

http://www.cdg.org/news/may99_marine.html


....Conclusions

"This test has clearly demonstrated that the Telstra CDMA network is
not limited by any artificial range constraints and that the Nortel
"Boomer Cell" is capable of delivering extended coverage over very long
distances.

The marine test has shown that CDMA coverage to sea can be achieved at
distances well in excess of 100 km from very high mountain top base
stations.

CDMA coverage to around 130 km was achieved from the Peak Alone base
station, beyond which the radio path is obstructed by the curvature of
the earth.

CDMA call quality in a marine environment was found to be consistently
good, with the background noise suppression being particularly useful
in noisy environments."

==========================================================
-
David

David L wrote:

> Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
> analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
> handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
> Marine. [bottom of post]
> Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
> start talking on the CDMA side?

I don't know, but the way I understand it, Australia has GSM deployed in the
cities and CDMA in the rural areas, so CDMA must do pretty well, long-range.


--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: [email protected] Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307

"Steve Sobol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't know, but the way I understand it, Australia has GSM deployed in
the
> cities and CDMA in the rural areas, so CDMA must do pretty well,
long-range.

Australia had an AMPS analog network which the government agreed to "shut
down" to get companies interested in bidding on the GSM licenses they were
offering. When it came time to "shut down" the analog network there was a
stink from some rural folks who had analog coverage but not GSM coverage.
The governemnt allowed Telstra to "shut down" analog but "start up" CDMA on
the same license. It's not really a rural/urban thing but the CDMA service
does have better coverage in many rural areas.

--
Donald Newcomb
DRNewcomb (at) attglobal (dot) net

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <[email protected]> on 1 Aug 2005
23:38:30 -0700, "David L" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Found Telstra's (Australian 1999) field test notes comparing long range
>analog to CDMA reception, using Nortel's "boomer" towers with various
>handset antennas and power levels. One test is land coverage and one
>Marine. [bottom of post]
>Wonder what the reception test would look like once a few hundred users
>start talking on the CDMA side?

CDMA is of course subject to cell shrinkage as the number of active callers
increases, but the effect can be minimized with proper design. It's mostly a
matter of deploying enough capacity to handle the traffic.

>The US carriers are going to have to make very similar deployments with
>boomer towers in rural areas, if they ever expect to turn off analog.

It's essentially just a cost issue -- Nortel's "boomer" towers make rural
coverage possible with half the number of towers, terrain permitting. That
last is the catch -- in hilly areas, the advantage may be much less.

>Australia uses the same kind of cellular phones and the same
>frequencies, so it's not a great leap to expect similar solutions be
>used in this country.

The initial field trials were run in this country, and I understand that
similar technology has been deployed here in some areas.

>OZ just turned off analog already, by legislative decree, and carriers
>in the US have not been forced to address this issue.

And probably won't be. The impetus is more from issues of capacity and
handset availability.

>The FCC has forced GPS location technologies on the cellular industry,
>in the interest of public safety.

Location yes, but not necessarily GPS -- GSM carriers aren't using GPS
(actually A-GPS).

>I believe a strong case can be made
>for the life saving benefits of basic, cellular voice service in rural
>areas, both for locals and travelers. Probably too obvious a point for
>government bureaucrats and too expensive a proposition for the Cellcos
>to even acknowledge.

There are better technologies than cellular from a pure safety standpoint;
e.g., 406 PLB <http://www.equipped.com/faq_plb/default.asp>.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

John Navas <[email protected]> wrote in
news:sEyHe.6900$p%[email protected]:

> Nope.
>
>

Ok, smartass....Show us one....

--
Larry

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:05:53 -0400, Larry <[email protected]> chose to add
this to the great equation of life, the universe, and everything:

>The Ghost of General Lee <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> Well, I'll be damned. You are just as ignorant about Congressional
>> apportionment as you are about so many other issues. Districts are
>> drawn according to census counts, not land size.
>
>The number's wrong but you're not so stupid you don't get my point, are
>you?

HIS point is that all Congressional districts have roughly equal
populations, which makes YOUR point invalid.

--
David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
"It was a true Olympic moment -- people from many nations joining together
in the spirit of friendship, of understanding, of KC, and -- above all --
of the Sunshine Band." - Dave Barry

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:33:15 GMT, "John Richards" <[email protected]>
chose to add this to the great equation of life, the universe, and
everything:

>Who engineers and designs the tractors, refrigerators and other major
>appliances that farmers use?
>Who runs the power plants that bring electricity to the farm?
>Who manufactures the fertilizer and pesticides that farmers need?
>Chances are, it's city folk.

John Deere tractors, Moline, Illinois, population 43,768 (throw in the
adjoining towns of Rock Island, Silvis, East Moline, and Davenport and
Bettendorf, Iowa, and the entire "metro area" population is 234,519).
Having been there a few times, I can tell you they all have a "small town
in hard times" feeling to them.

Maytag appliances, Newton, Iowa, population 14,789. Actually, I'm surprised
it's that big.

Most of the power plants that serve Chicago (and the farms of northern
Illinois) are located on the outskirts of small towns ringing the city; the
closest nuclear plant is in Zion, 45 miles north, population 22,866 (aside:
it has at least one, maybe all of its reactors permanently off line due to
an operator's error). Others are in Byron, 2,917; Braidwood, 5,203...

I have no idea where fertilizer and pesticides are made, but I'm sure it's
not in major cities.

The point is, the big cities, small towns, and rural farms are all parts of
a comprehensive whole, all interdependent on each other, and the people in
all of them have the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness -- and cellular coverage.

--
David Streeter, "an internet god" -- Dave Barry
http://home.att.net/~dwstreeter
Remove the naughty bit from my address to reply
Expect a train on ANY track at ANY time.
"I love sports. Whenever I can I always watch the Detroit Tigers on radio."
- Gerald Ford

In article <4WiHe.6712$p%[email protected]>, spamfilter0
@navasgroup.com says...
>
> >and it includes building new rural towers to support systems that don't
> >reach as far--
>
> They do reach as far.

As TDMA maybe but not 3watt AMPS and there are lots of analog users
still. True they were addressing that anyway with new towers but this
forced GSM-only push has accelerated everything.
>
>
> On the contrary -- GSM will coexist with W-CDMA for many years to come.
>
True but they did'nt NEED to convert and could have waited for the next
wave--personally I think Cingular could/should have waited also.
>
>
> FWIW, I'm now starting to see rural areas where I get GSM coverage while those
> with TDMA(IS-136)/AMPS phones don't have coverage. I think the conversion is
> now going much faster than you think.
>
Haven't seen that yet. They may be putting GSM-only radios on new
towers--even ones that had been built for TDMA but hadn't gone online
yet. If there is a significant cost saving that might be a good move--
existing TDMA/AMPS users would not complain about loss of service since
they never used that tower anyway.

--
Jud
Dallas TX USA