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  1. #16
    andy
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..


    mike wrote:
    > andy wrote:
    > > The EU countries are now all in the 70p zone; this is the only
    > > improvement. Some other European countries have been put up from 70p to
    > > 1.30.

    >
    > This isn't right.
    >
    > The cheapest PAYG zone was 1.20, no countries were 70p.
    >
    > EU countries are now all either 70p or 90p, and Switzerland is 70p.
    >
    > Norway, for example, has moved from Europe 1 to Europe2 and has
    > therefore gone up from 1.20 to 1.30.
    >
    > > Get a foreign SIM card, either local or one of the global ones with
    > > free incoming calls, then use callback to make calls for between 5p and
    > > 20p for most of the world

    >
    > I have a Riiing card which I used in Iceland and Spain last year, and
    > Sweden earlier this year, and now an 0044 card; yes, I could
    > investigate callback for cheaper calls.


    My apologies - I had been looking at the pay monthly tariffs, and even
    though it was very clear you'd mentioned payg, I was mixing them up

    Still, at least we now have both tariffs, and it appears that payg
    rates have improved rather more than contract ones, though well worth
    avoiding either

    http://www.orange.co.uk/away/
    http://www.orange.co.uk/travel/

    I also have both Riiing and 0044 (and a couple of left over local
    ones). There are also ones with Iceland Estonia and Monaco numbers, and
    rumours of more

    The first 0044 SIMs have very good rates, on a par with using a local
    SIM and callback, but they now have new published tariffs. I have a
    message that the old tariffs will still apply to mine, but someone else
    has a rather more ambiguous reply, so it remains to be seen.

    Both of these SIMs can also be used with a separate callback service,
    but it gets a bit confusing with either two phones or double callback -
    worthwhile for calls at 8 or 10p a minute though.




    See More: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..




  2. #17
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > How do you explain that a roaming Orange call in Hong Kong a few years
    > ago would have cost a few pence a minute, 3 HK charges only a couple of
    > pence a minute for local or UK bound calls, but Orange sustains the
    > blatant lie that they are only passing on the other network charges if
    > they charge you =A31.45 a minute?


    How do you know what the HK network charges non-HK networks for the
    privilege of allowing non-HK-ers to roam there? Maybe the HK network is
    subsiding the very cheap domestic rates by charging roamers a fortune?
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  3. #18
    andy
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..


    Jon wrote:
    > [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > > How do you explain that a roaming Orange call in Hong Kong a few years
    > > ago would have cost a few pence a minute, 3 HK charges only a couple of
    > > pence a minute for local or UK bound calls, but Orange sustains the
    > > blatant lie that they are only passing on the other network charges if
    > > they charge you =A31.45 a minute?

    >
    > How do you know what the HK network charges non-HK networks for the
    > privilege of allowing non-HK-ers to roam there? Maybe the HK network is
    > subsiding the very cheap domestic rates by charging roamers a fortune?


    How did I know what it used to cost a few years ago - because Orange
    sent me a booklet with the charges in it

    It's time to end these myths that roaming charges are only the charges
    passed on by the other networks. 200 networks do not simultaneously
    decide to charge Orange or any other network a higher tariff.

    The profit margin on incoming roaming calls is in the order of 90%,
    which is how some companies can afford to discount them completely.




  4. #19
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > How did I know what it used to cost a few years ago - because Orange
    > sent me a booklet with the charges in it


    Thats how much Orange charges you, but how do you know how much the HK
    network charges the Orange UK network to allow the roaming?
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  5. #20
    andy
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..


    Jon wrote:
    > [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > > How did I know what it used to cost a few years ago - because Orange
    > > sent me a booklet with the charges in it

    >
    > Thats how much Orange charges you, but how do you know how much the HK
    > network charges the Orange UK network to allow the roaming?
    > --


    Why are you continuing to support the claim that mobile networks are
    only passing on over-high charges from elsewhere? To suggest that the
    2p/min local calls are subsidised by overcharging foreign visitors 50
    times over is simply not sustainable

    Do 200 or 300 networks act in concert to present Orange with proposed
    increases? NO




  6. #21
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > Why are you continuing to support the claim that mobile networks are
    > only passing on over-high charges from elsewhere?


    Where did I say I supported it? I don't for the record. WHat I'm saying
    is that you cannot possibly know how much network A would charge network
    B to allow network Bs customers to roam on network A.

    For all we know it might be massive profiteering on the part of network
    A, on the other hand high roaming costs could simply be profiteering by
    our own network, we simply don't know.

    > To suggest that the
    > 2p/min local calls are subsidised by overcharging foreign visitors 50
    > times over is simply not sustainable


    How do you know that though? You're just speculating. Unless you have
    some evidence you'd care to share?

    > Do 200 or 300 networks act in concert to present Orange with proposed
    > increases? NO


    Not all at once of course, but they may have been nudging prices up for
    the last year or so. The fact remains that we simply don't know.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  7. #22
    andy
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..


    Jon wrote:
    > [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > > Why are you continuing to support the claim that mobile networks are
    > > only passing on over-high charges from elsewhere?

    >
    > Where did I say I supported it? I don't for the record. WHat I'm saying
    > is that you cannot possibly know how much network A would charge network
    > B to allow network Bs customers to roam on network A.
    >
    > For all we know it might be massive profiteering on the part of network
    > A, on the other hand high roaming costs could simply be profiteering by
    > our own network, we simply don't know.


    There are several global roaming SIMs that have free incoming calls in
    60 to 80 countries, and use callback to make calls for tariffs around
    30p per minute. There are cheaper methods of making calls with any of
    them.

    If the roamed networks were extorting money in the way you allege, this
    would be impossible. In fact it is impossible in USA, whose networks
    have a reputation for very expensive roaming fees to visitors and its
    own customers abroad. India Canada and a few others are also expensive,
    but I say again, 80 countries are in the area of a few pence, and these
    SIMs waive the charge while the main networks mark it up by factors of
    5 and 10

    If you refuse to believe me, then study the ERG information on these
    tariffs

    >
    > > To suggest that the
    > > 2p/min local calls are subsidised by overcharging foreign visitors 50
    > > times over is simply not sustainable

    >
    > How do you know that though? You're just speculating. Unless you have
    > some evidence you'd care to share?


    This line is intuitively ridiculous; there simply aren't enough
    visitors to HK to support your assertion

    >
    > > Do 200 or 300 networks act in concert to present Orange with proposed
    > > increases? NO

    >
    > Not all at once of course, but they may have been nudging prices up for
    > the last year or so. The fact remains that we simply don't know.


    Yesterday T-mobile and Vodafone announced 40% or 50% cuts in roaming
    charges, and asserted that the market should be controlled by
    competition not regulation, though it appears that the EU's intended
    legislation will continue

    If Orange ARE actually paying other networks such high tariffs that
    they must charge 1.45 versus T-mobile's 55p and Vodafone's from
    inclusive minutes plus 75p connect charge, they have some serious
    negotiation to do.

    I note that on another thread you observe that saving loads on roaming
    charges is just too much faffing around. I don't object to your
    inertia, but at least stop trying to distort the subject by saying that
    the high charges depend on the roamed network rather than the customers
    own, and are not worth the effort to avoid.




  8. #23
    andy
    Guest

    Re: New Orange roaming charges from June 1st..


    andy wrote:
    > Jon wrote:
    > > For all we know it might be massive profiteering on the part of network
    > > A, on the other hand high roaming costs could simply be profiteering by
    > > our own network, we simply don't know.

    >


    >
    > Yesterday T-mobile and Vodafone announced 40% or 50% cuts in roaming
    > charges, and asserted that the market should be controlled by
    > competition not regulation, though it appears that the EU's intended
    > legislation will continue


    Yesterday afternoon (Thurs 11) part of O2 announced that by the end of
    the year O2 and Telefonica will start abolishing incoming roaming
    charges. Also this evening, another country's O2 network announced
    large cuts in roaming charges (still 59c, well down from 1.99), on
    any network [in Europe?].

    That makes quite a few announcements this week, from T-mobile, Vodafone
    and O2, that roaming charges are on the way down, following previous
    announcements by 3 Irish networks in the last couple of months.

    Orange's increases or maintained high levels are out of step

    So ...
    > > How do you know that though? You're just speculating. Unless you have
    > > some evidence you'd care to share?


    .... so I repeat my assertion that roaming charges are in the control of
    the customer's network, not as per the persistent lie of the overcharge
    of the roamed one being passed on. If the charges were not
    anti-competitive before why have they all started racing to compete, in
    the face of EU proposals for legislation on the issue?




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