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  1. #1
    Mike
    Guest
    I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask


    Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.

    So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    Tyke) & got a new passport

    I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy



    Couple of questions

    - Is this illegal?
    - Any comments on this (apart from it being totally immoral & screwing
    the banks)


    Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to pin-point
    location (possibly) - which is why I have trashed my phone & got a PAYG
    phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.




    Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the USA
    or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do? Cos the police won't
    give a f**k & have no intentions of returning to the UK. It's not like
    they are going to extradite me.


    Please remember this is all hypothetical.

    I am just curious.




    See More: Getting a new identity & a new credit history




  2. #2
    Jon
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    [email protected] declared for all the world to hear...
    > I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask
    >
    >
    > Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up =A360,000 of debt
    > (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >
    > So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    > Tyke) & got a new passport
    >
    > I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    > aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >
    >
    >
    > Couple of questions
    >
    > - Is this illegal?


    I think if it could be proved that you were doing it with intent to get
    out of your debt, I.e. fraud, then you would probably be in trouble.
    IANAL mind you.

    > Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    > tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to pin-point
    > location (possibly)


    Or not. Locating someone using the phone is only done in life or death
    situations, e.g. Ian Huntley in the Soham double-murder case.

    > - which is why I have trashed my phone & got a PAYG
    > phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.


    Big brother still watches over you. He just will take a bit longer to
    find out who you are.

    > Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the USA
    > or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do?


    Sure there is. These banks communicate with each other! Do Credit
    reference agencies share data across borders? Maybe, maybe not. Either
    way your credit rating is ****ed.
    --
    Regards
    Jon



  3. #3
    Bystander
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history


    I know this isn't really legal,

    Correct. The law on fraud changed yesterday.

    Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.

    Civil matter - bankruptcy is probably best

    So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    Tyke) & got a new passport
    I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy

    Clear intention to defraud

    - Is this illegal?
    - Any comments on this (apart from it being totally immoral & screwing
    the banks)

    Yes, it's illegal, so immoral doesn't come into it.






  4. #4
    Tumbleweed
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history


    "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...


    >I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy


    Tried opening a bank account recently?

    > - Is this illegal?


    Yes

    >Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    >tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to pin-point
    >location (possibly) - which is why I have trashed my phone & got a PAYG
    >phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.


    LOL


    >Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the USA
    >or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do? Cos the police won't
    >give a f**k & have no intentions of returning to the UK. It's not like
    >they are going to extradite me.


    You think its "simple" to move to the US or Canada or Oz?

    >Please remember this is all hypothetical.


    >I am just curious.


    No, simple.

    --
    Tumbleweed

    email replies not necessary but to contact use;
    tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com







  5. #5
    Brian A
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 08:15:05 -0000, "Tumbleweed"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    >>I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >>aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy

    >
    >Tried opening a bank account recently?
    >
    >> - Is this illegal?

    >
    >Yes
    >
    >>Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    >>tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to pin-point
    >>location (possibly) - which is why I have trashed my phone & got a PAYG
    >>phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.

    >
    >LOL
    >
    >
    >>Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the USA
    >>or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do? Cos the police won't
    >>give a f**k & have no intentions of returning to the UK. It's not like
    >>they are going to extradite me.

    >
    >You think its "simple" to move to the US or Canada or Oz?
    >
    >>Please remember this is all hypothetical.

    >
    >>I am just curious.

    >
    >No, simple.

    Naivety abounds!!
    The very fact that you have posted to this newsgroup can lead a trail
    back to you. Further, you have intimated why you changed your identity
    - to avoid the law. An admission of guilt in writing!
    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.



  6. #6
    Alex Heney
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On 1 Jan 2007 21:56:21 -0800, "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask
    >
    >
    >Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    >(unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >
    >So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    >Tyke) & got a new passport
    >
    >I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >
    >
    >
    >Couple of questions
    >
    >- Is this illegal?


    Yes.

    It is fraud (Obtaining financial services by deception)


    >- Any comments on this (apart from it being totally immoral & screwing
    >the banks)
    >
    >
    >Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    >tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to pin-point
    >location (possibly) - which is why I have trashed my phone & got a PAYG
    >phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.
    >


    The banks and debt collectors etc have no access to your mobile phone
    records.

    Never mind to your current location via mobile phone.


    >
    >Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the USA
    >or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do? Cos the police won't
    >give a f**k & have no intentions of returning to the UK. It's not like
    >they are going to extradite me.
    >


    They could still sue you, and get judgement enforced.
    --
    Alex Heney, Global Villager
    Crime does not pay...as well as politics.
    To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom



  7. #7
    Mark Goodge
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 11:23:12 +0000, Anthony R. Gold put finger to
    keyboard and typed:

    >On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 07:44:14 -0000, "Bystander" <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> I know this isn't really legal,
    >>
    >> Correct. The law on fraud changed yesterday.
    >>
    >> Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    >> (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >>
    >> Civil matter - bankruptcy is probably best
    >>
    >> So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    >> Tyke) & got a new passport
    >> I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >> aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >>
    >> Clear intention to defraud

    >
    >At what point was that the clear intention?


    Saying it's his first UK bank account. That's an outright lie, and
    hence constitutes clear evidence of intention to mislead.

    > I'd say the name change is
    >only part of a fraud if the £60,000 of debts were run up in anticipation
    >of this name change. Now and at this point in time that all that is clear
    >to me is the OP's present intention to evade his past creditors which is
    >not fraud. Even filing his false and misleading bank account application
    >may not be fraud, depending on the particular facts and circumstances and
    >whether it is found that this action exposes someone to a risk of loss.


    It isn't necessary to actually cause someone loss in order to be
    guilty of obtaining financial services by deception. The mere fact of
    obtaining them by means of a lie is enough, even if you subequently
    act entirely honestly in respect to the services so obtained.

    I'd agree that it's not actually *fraud*, per se, unless it causes
    actual loss to someone else. But obtaining financial services by
    deception is an offence in its own right which doesn't require there
    to have been a "victim" in the usual sense. It's a bit like the
    difference between, say, dangerous driving and causing death by
    dangerous driving - you can be guilty of the former even if you don't
    actually cause an accident and it's an entirely victimless offence.

    Mark
    --
    Visit: http://www.ukcommunityradio.info - Community Radio in the UK
    "I don't care if Monday's blue"



  8. #8
    Ronald Raygun
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    Anthony R. Gold wrote:

    > Fraud by false representation or by failing to disclose information does
    > require that there to be a gain for himself or another or a loss or an
    > exposure to the risk of a loss to another; whether either of those will
    > have happened depends on all of the facts and circumstances.


    In the proposed circumstances there appears to be an intention to use the
    name change to evade an existing £60k debt. If successful, that would
    clearly represent a "loss to another", wouldn't you say?




  9. #9
    Mark Goodge
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:42:28 +0000, Anthony R. Gold put finger to
    keyboard and typed:

    >On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 12:17:02 +0000, Mark Goodge
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Saying it's his first UK bank account. That's an outright lie, and
    >> hence constitutes clear evidence of intention to mislead.

    >
    >Undoubtedly, but lying and misleading someone does not amount to fraud.


    No, but they may amount to a different offence.

    >> But obtaining financial services by
    >> deception is an offence in its own right which doesn't require there
    >> to have been a "victim" in the usual sense.

    >
    >What offense under which Act?


    Obtaining services by deception, Theft Act 1978, as amended by the
    Theft Act 1996. Actually, you'd need to get a loan for it to be an
    offence, so merely having a bank account and keeping it in credit
    wouldn't break the law even if you lied to get it. But if you obtain a
    credit card, or go overdrawn on a current account, then it's a breach
    of the law if you used deception to obtain the card or account.

    Mark
    --
    Visit: http://www.CorporateContact.info - phone and email contacts for Amazon, Paypal, eBay and lots of other hard-to-contact organisations
    "If you never know truth then you never know love"



  10. #10
    ThePunisher
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask
    >
    >
    > Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    > (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >
    > So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    > Tyke) & got a new passport
    >
    > I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    > aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >
    >
    >
    > Couple of questions
    >
    > - Is this illegal?
    > - Any comments on this (apart from it being totally immoral & screwing
    > the banks)
    >
    >
    > Now I realise the banks & debt collectors have ways and means of
    > tracing people. Including using using mobile phone signals to
    > pin-point location (possibly) - which is why I have trashed my phone
    > & got a PAYG phone. Much better. No more big brother watching over me.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Also, if I didn't do any of the above & simply moved to canada, the
    > USA or oz, is there *anything* the banks could do? Cos the police
    > won't give a f**k & have no intentions of returning to the UK. It's
    > not like they are going to extradite me.
    >
    >
    > Please remember this is all hypothetical.
    >
    > I am just curious.


    Too much trouble, do this, look up the deaths and find a baby who died just
    after birth around the same time you were born, send away for a copy of his
    birth cert and Bob's your uncle.

    --
    ThePunisher





  11. #11
    Alex Heney
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:42:47 +0000, "Anthony R. Gold"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 09:42:06 +0000, Alex Heney <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On 1 Jan 2007 21:56:21 -0800, "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    >>> (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >>>
    >>> So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    >>> Tyke) & got a new passport
    >>>
    >>> I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >>> aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Couple of questions
    >>>
    >>> - Is this illegal?

    >>
    >> Yes.
    >>
    >> It is fraud (Obtaining financial services by deception)

    >
    >That is now "obtaining services dishonestly" which requires that services
    >be obtained on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made
    >for or in respect of them and when no such payment has been, is being or
    >will be made. As stated by the OP, that does not apply in this situation.


    I am not at all convinced that is a requirement.

    The law does say "(2) It is an obtaining of services where the other
    is induced to confer a benefit by doing some act, or causing or
    permitting some act to be done, on the understanding that the benefit
    has been or will be paid for."

    But it does not say that "Dishonestly obtaining services by deception"
    means that no such payment has been made. I would say that any
    situation where the supplier is induced to offer those services by a
    lie on the part of the customer is doing that.

    Nor does it say that is the only definition of obtaining services.
    --
    Alex Heney, Global Villager
    In youth we learn; in age we understand.
    To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom



  12. #12
    Peter Lynch
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:12:49 GMT, ThePunisher wrote:
    >
    > Too much trouble, do this, look up the deaths and find a baby who died just
    > after birth around the same time you were born, send away for a copy of his
    > birth cert and Bob's your uncle.
    >

    Well, there's a little more to it than that.
    Some years ago there was an aricle in the FT called something like
    "how to disappear". Conclusion was that it was:
    a.) expensive to do properly
    b.) took time to establish your alternate persona _before_ you
    make the break
    c.) required you to break contact with all your friends and family

    The upshot is, that if all you're trying to do is wriggle out from paying
    your debts, then an IVA is possibly cheaper/easier and means you won't
    spend the rest of your life worrying that someone's found you.
    Your credit rating will be completely non-existent in either case
    so that balances out.

    Usual disclaimers apply: IANAFC, don't lend someone money for plastic
    surgery, etc.

    Pete

    --
    ...........................................................................
    .. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
    .. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
    .. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................




  13. #13
    Tumbleweed
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history


    "ThePunisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    >
    > Too much trouble, do this, look up the deaths and find a baby who died
    > just after birth around the same time you were born, send away for a copy
    > of his birth cert and Bob's your uncle.



    I thought that loophole was plugged years ago?

    --
    Tumbleweed

    email replies not necessary but to contact use;
    tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com






  14. #14
    Alex Heney
    Guest

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:51:26 +0000, "Anthony R. Gold"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 17:21:00 +0000, Alex Heney <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 16:42:47 +0000, "Anthony R. Gold"
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 02 Jan 2007 09:42:06 +0000, Alex Heney <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 1 Jan 2007 21:56:21 -0800, "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I know this isn't really legal, but I'm curious so I thought I'd ask
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    >>>>> (unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    >>>>> Tyke) & got a new passport
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >>>>> aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Couple of questions
    >>>>>
    >>>>> - Is this illegal?
    >>>>
    >>>> Yes.
    >>>>
    >>>> It is fraud (Obtaining financial services by deception)
    >>>
    >>> That is now "obtaining services dishonestly" which requires that services
    >>> be obtained on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made
    >>> for or in respect of them and when no such payment has been, is being or
    >>> will be made. As stated by the OP, that does not apply in this situation.

    >>
    >> I am not at all convinced that is a requirement.
    >>
    >> The law does say "(2) It is an obtaining of services where the other
    >> is induced to confer a benefit by doing some act, or causing or
    >> permitting some act to be done, on the understanding that the benefit
    >> has been or will be paid for."

    >
    >That section of the Theft (Amendment) Act 1996 was repealed in the Fraud
    >Act 2006.
    >


    So what I said is correct now. But won't be in a fortnight :-)

    I wasn't aware of the change due to the Fraud Act 2006, but having
    checked, the replacement provision (section 11) certainly does have
    the effect you suggest, but does not come into force until 15th
    January 2007.

    Which presumably is why SLD does not yet show the amendment :-)
    --
    Alex Heney, Global Villager
    A clean desk is a sign of a cluttered desk drawer.
    To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom



  15. #15

    Re: Getting a new identity & a new credit history

    On 1 Jan 2007 21:56:21 -0800, "Mike" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Say my name used to be David Tyke & I ran up £60,000 of debt
    >(unsecured) on credit cards. But I couldn't afford to pay it back.
    >
    >So I dyed my hair, relocated, changed my name by Deed Poll (to Mike
    >Tyke) & got a new passport
    >
    >I then opened a new bank account saying it was my very first bank
    >aco**** in the uk as I grew up in Italy
    >
    >
    >
    >Couple of questions
    >
    >- Is this illegal?


    Of course it is. It is fraud.

    >- Any comments on this (apart from it being totally immoral & screwing
    >the banks)


    If you are run up debts you can't repay, the bankruptcy system is the
    way to go. And you are clear of debt in 12 months with no need of hair
    dye.

    --

    Iain
    the out-of-date hairydog guide to mobile phones
    http://www.hairydog.co.uk/cell1.html
    Browse now while stocks last!



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