what is the scam?

Hi I don't know what the scam but there has to be one somewhere.

I work an supermarket that sells PAYG mobile phones. For weeks now the same
2 people (asian if it makes sense) have been coming in and buying mobile
phones. Nobody was paying attention to this until is was remarked that the
same 2 people were coming in 2 or 3 times a day to buy the cheapest mobile
phones for cash. Since the shop never has all that many in stock they were
limited to 2 per customer. Someone worked out that they were buying 40 plus
phones a week. And it has been going on for weeks. Last night security
decided that something funny was going on so told them that they were not
getting any more phones unless they could explain why they were buying all
the phones.

Seemingly because the phones are subsidised the store is losing money, I
don't know if this is correct but security wanted to know what would happen
by refusing the sale.

So the 2 leave and an hour later another Asian comes into the store to buy
the same phones. He also had been in before buying phones. So he was told he
was not getting any phones and the night shift was warned (24 hour store)

What happens is that another 2 asians come in at 3 in the morning to buy the
phones. were told none in stock.

So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
there ?
Jan

---

› See More: what is the scam?

"Jenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Hi I don't know what the scam but there has to be one somewhere.
>
> I work an supermarket that sells PAYG mobile phones. For weeks now the
> same 2 people (asian if it makes sense) have been coming in and buying
> mobile phones. Nobody was paying attention to this until is was remarked
> that the same 2 people were coming in 2 or 3 times a day to buy the
> cheapest mobile phones for cash. Since the shop never has all that many in
> stock they were limited to 2 per customer. Someone worked out that they
> were buying 40 plus phones a week. And it has been going on for weeks.
> Last night security decided that something funny was going on so told them
> that they were not getting any more phones unless they could explain why
> they were buying all the phones.
>
> Seemingly because the phones are subsidised the store is losing money, I
> don't know if this is correct but security wanted to know what would
> happen by refusing the sale.
>
> So the 2 leave and an hour later another Asian comes into the store to buy
> the same phones. He also had been in before buying phones. So he was told
> he was not getting any phones and the night shift was warned (24 hour
> store)
>
> What happens is that another 2 asians come in at 3 in the morning to buy
> the phones. were told none in stock.
>
> So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
> there ?
> Jan


If Tesburysons want to sell their merchandise at a loss that
is their decision. These guys are probably just buying them
to sell on at a profit, and good luck to them I say!
--
Graham

%Profound_observation%

"Jenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Hi I don't know what the scam but there has to be one somewhere.
>
No scam it is just called trade.

Given there is 17.5% VAT in the UK the price where they are going must be
silly.

HP and other PC manufacturers have a semi state of war with what they call
the "grey" market.

What it actualy means is that they have bandit prices in Rip Off Britain,
and try and prosecute dealers who legitimately purchase PC's in other
countries, possibly even directly from HP, and then resell them in the UK
below UK prices.

There were similar rows a few years back about personal imports of EU cars,
especially Mercedes.

In article <[email protected]>, jenny28
@fastermail.com says...
> Hi I don't know what the scam but there has to be one somewhere.
>
> I work an supermarket that sells PAYG mobile phones. For weeks now the same
> 2 people (asian if it makes sense) have been coming in and buying mobile
> phones. Nobody was paying attention to this until is was remarked that the
> same 2 people were coming in 2 or 3 times a day to buy the cheapest mobile
> phones for cash. Since the shop never has all that many in stock they were
> limited to 2 per customer. Someone worked out that they were buying 40 plus
> phones a week. And it has been going on for weeks. Last night security
> decided that something funny was going on so told them that they were not
> getting any more phones unless they could explain why they were buying all
> the phones.
>
> Seemingly because the phones are subsidised the store is losing money, I
> don't know if this is correct but security wanted to know what would happen
> by refusing the sale.
>
> So the 2 leave and an hour later another Asian comes into the store to buy
> the same phones. He also had been in before buying phones. So he was told he
> was not getting any phones and the night shift was warned (24 hour store)
>
> What happens is that another 2 asians come in at 3 in the morning to buy the
> phones. were told none in stock.
>
> So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
> there ?

The phones are never used, they are unlocked and sent abroad and the SIM
cards sold separately here in the UK. SUpermarkets are prime targets for
this as they dont insist on registration. It's called box-breaking.

PAYG phnes are subsidised by the network. SO for example a phne that you
sell at £9.99 actually costs the network about £20. So when it's sold
they make a loss, but they expect to recoup that loss from the top-ups
that the customer buys.

It's nearly always asian gangs or eastern european gangs, and its a form
of organised crime (except its not a crime to buy phones).

You are doing the right thing by turning them away but they will just go
elsewhere.

Every supermarket needs a Jenny!
--
Regards
Jon

Jenny wrote:
> So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
> there ?
> Jan
>

You are supposed to report this activity to the police. Do it...

Anti-Terrorist hotline: 0800 789 321


--
Adrian C

On 9 Apr, 08:46, Adrian C <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jenny wrote:
> > So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
> > there ?
> > Jan
>
> You are supposed to report this activity to the police. Do it...
>
> Anti-Terrorist hotline: 0800 789 321
>
> --
> Adrian C

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They will laugh in her face How the hell is this connected with
terrorists?

sol_sun_ftm wrote:

> What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> They will laugh in her face How the hell is this connected with
> terrorists?

You've been living under a rock lately?

--
Adrian C

sol_sun_ftm <[email protected]> wrote:
> They will laugh in her face How the hell is this connected with
> terrorists?

Let's say I want to talk to my 'colleagues' about our bomb plot. The police
will be able to trace our associates through our phone calls - know who
spoke to whom when and for how long. They'll also know where we were all
the time (cell locations). Even if we buy new SIMs they can trace the IMEI
of our phones.

If we buy a dozen PAYG mobiles each, use them once and throw them in the
river they can't trace us. They know where we were but the phones are
clean: they'll know which shop they were bought from, but if we wait long
enough that the CCTV tapes have been wiped then there's no evidence. Even
if they capture one of the phones they'll know that Suspect A talked to
someone else, but if that phone is clean of fingerprints at the bottom of
the river they have no evidence who it is.


The alternative is use for identity theft. Let's say I buy identity details
from the local mafia. How do I exploit it without getting caught? I can't
use my own phone or broadband because those are traceable. But I can get an
internet connection through a PAYG phone. I can then spam/phish/etc
untraceably [1]. Or I make calls to the victim's bank and ask them to
redirect mail to a stooge address (one undergoing building work by some
dodgy mates who have access to the post, for example). Then I can take out
a credit card in their name. I either empty the card account with help from
my pal in Russia, or I sign up for a contract mobile. Then I call Russian
premium rate numbers (or whatever) and run up a huge bill. Then I walk off
with the cash from the premium rate numbers that's been siphoned into my
Russian bank account.

That doesn't sound like it pays much to be worth the hassle, but repeat a
hundred times and you can bet it will.

[1] I won't be sending the phishing emails myself, but I need some internet
access to inject the virus that sets up the botnet that sends the emails,
and to set up the fake websites. And I need somewhere (through enough
cutouts) where I collect the bank logins of the victims and to login to and
empty their internet banking.

Theo

Jenny wrote:

> Hi I don't know what the scam but there has to be one somewhere.

It's simple: the network sells these handsets to the supermarkets at a
loss, expecting to make a profit on call charges. The supermarket makes
a profit on each sale (well, they're daft if they don't).

What these buyers are doing is unlocking the phones and selling them
overseas at a profit, which is entirely legal but not what the UK mobile
network wants. It is possible that the network may get a bit difficult
about supplying the phones if loads are never registered, but until they
do, your supermarket is not losing out from these sales.

Personally, I consider the actions of the networks in subsidising the
handsets to be immoral (it encourages people to treat them as
disposable) but I can't see anything immoral in what the asian buyers
are doing. It certainly isn't illegal.

"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In article <[email protected]>, jenny28
@fastermail.com says...
<snip>
>> So what is going on? 100's of phones a month. There has to be some scam
>> there ?
>
>The phones are never used, they are unlocked and sent abroad and the SIM
>cards sold separately here in the UK. SUpermarkets are prime targets for
>this as they dont insist on registration. It's called box-breaking.
>PAYG phnes are subsidised by the network. SO for example a phone that you
>sell at £9.99 actually costs the network about £20. So when it's sold
>they make a loss, but they expect to recoup that loss from the top-ups
>that the customer buys.
>It's nearly always asian gangs or eastern european gangs, and its a form
>of organised crime (except its not a crime to buy phones).
>You are doing the right thing by turning them away but they will just go
>elsewhere.
>Every supermarket needs a Jenny!
>Regards
>Jon
>
That is exactly what they are doing, I did it myself a couple of years ago
when 3 network were subsiding PAYT Nokia 7600 at CPW.
CPW were limiting them to two per customer.
Unlocked them myself, and reset them with FBus by maestro,
with the lead that came with them, which restored the missing 2G menu.

Flogged them on eBay for about twice what I paid for them
to Europeans, who have to pay the real unlocked unsubsidised price

I never ceases to amaze me that many people in the UK think
that say at the moment a Nokia 1208 on Orange PAYT
in Woolworths really does cost only 9.99

If I could unlock them I'd be buying them and flogging them on eBay

Steve Terry

"Adrian C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sol_sun_ftm wrote:
>
>> What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> They will laugh in her face How the hell is this connected with
>> terrorists?
>
> You've been living under a rock lately?

I suspect he hasn't, but I also suspect that you usually live under a
bridge.

--
Unlock Your Phone's Potential
www.UselessInfo.org.uk
www.ThePhoneLocker.co.uk
www.GSM-Solutions.co.uk

Richard Colton wrote:
>
> I suspect he hasn't, but I also suspect that you usually live under a
> bridge.

He doesn't sound that smart and has gone quiet. Perhaps some wisdom on
why this is NOT worth reporting? The way that the public's assistance
has been requested is 'if you suspect it, report it' no matter how
inconsequential it may be.

<http://www.met.police.uk/so/at_hotline.htm>

--
Adrian C

"Adrian C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard Colton wrote:
>>
>> I suspect he hasn't, but I also suspect that you usually live under a
>> bridge.
>
> He doesn't sound that smart and has gone quiet.

You deduced that from one written post?

> Perhaps some wisdom on why this is NOT worth reporting?

Perhaps because the purchasers have done nothing illegal?

> The way that the public's assistance has been requested is 'if you suspect
> it, report it' no matter how inconsequential it may be.

This subject has been covered quite thoroughly previously. If Plod are
going to investigate everyone that has bought multiple handsets, they'd
better start increasing their workforce by a factor of 100 as soon as
possible. What's next? Report anyone buying more than one bottle of Cola
and a packet of mints - because as we all know, they could be combined to
make a rocket that could be used as a delivery system for explosives?

Box breaking is NOT illegal. Most independent phone shops (and many more
individuals) do it to some extent simply because it's often a cheaper way to
procure handsets than buying them piecemeal at the distributors.

--
Unlock Your Phone's Potential
www.UselessInfo.org.uk
www.ThePhoneLocker.co.uk
www.GSM-Solutions.co.uk

Richard Colton wrote:
> "Adrian C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> He doesn't sound that smart and has gone quiet.
>
> You deduced that from one written post?

Yup. I live under a bridge, I can deduce anything (when drunk)....

>> Perhaps some wisdom on why this is NOT worth reporting?
>
> Perhaps because the purchasers have done nothing illegal?

So they wouldn't mind the intrusion to check :-)

>> The way that the public's assistance has been requested is 'if you suspect
>> it, report it' no matter how inconsequential it may be.
>
> This subject has been covered quite thoroughly previously. If Plod are
> going to investigate everyone that has bought multiple handsets, they'd
> better start increasing their workforce by a factor of 100 as soon as
> possible.

Ah, this ain't Plod. It's experts gathering inteligence, putting
multiple leads together to arrive at decisions - rather than relying on
the guesswork gained from a just a few. In my IT experience, quesswork
wastes more time then absorbing multiple streams of information and
making a faster trend analysis. They need our help.

What's next? Report anyone buying more than one bottle of Cola
> and a packet of mints - because as we all know, they could be combined to
> make a rocket that could be used as a delivery system for explosives?

Wel, yes - if something doesn't fit. Obviously Cola/Mints is a bit "out
there" as a weapon; these is no obvious evidence it is a threat - but if
you have doubt about the individual making the purchase, let the experts
worry about the threat assessment.

> Box breaking is NOT illegal. Most independent phone shops (and many more
> individuals) do it to some extent simply because it's often a cheaper way to
> procure handsets than buying them piecemeal at the distributors.

This is nothing to do with the legality of box breaking.

This is to do with terrorists having access to untraceable
communications and means of raising money - there is strong evidence
"pay as you go" is a danger as indeed Theo has written.

People not living under a rock and being aware of government advisories
would have heard or thought about that - and hopefully would do the
right thing.


Now, who's walked of with my coat, and where's my <fx:hic> whiskey?

--
Adrian C

Richard Colton wrote:

[snip]

> Box breaking is NOT illegal. Most independent phone shops (and many
> more individuals) do it to some extent simply because it's often a
> cheaper way to procure handsets than buying them piecemeal at the
> distributors.

The whole thing hinges on the networks' insistence on handset subsidy. If
phones were sold at realistic prices then it wouldn't happen and people
wouldn't see the need to 'upgrade' their phones every 5 minutes.

Wait, though - that would mean people not spending all that money in phone
shops, oh no, we can't have that.........!


Ivor