Who's responsible?

On 01/09/2008 10:16, ChrisM wrote:

> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis.

Since you bought it from them, it's their responsibility, I'm surprised
they are passing the buck, their reputation is generally better.

---

› See More: Who's responsible?

"Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 01/09/2008 10:16, ChrisM wrote:
>
>> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis.
>
> Since you bought it from them, it's their responsibility, I'm
> surprised they are passing the buck, their reputation is generally
> better.

It could be the fact that the phone has been 'unofficially unlocked,
even if the fault might have nothing to do with the unlocking. Any
tampering of any item will usually invalidate any guarantee, and I can't
see the Sale of Goods Act being any different in this respect.

"ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snp>
> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis. I then
> got it unlocked so that I could use my existing Virgin Mobile SIM in it,
> and everything has been fine until this fault started.
>
> I phoned John Lewis, but they said I had to take it up with the Service
> Provider, so I phoned Orange, but seeing as I have never registered it
> with them (and I threw away the Orange SIM that came with the phone),
> fairly understandably, they ain't interested. I can't see Virgin wanting
> to help as I didn't buy the phone from them... I haven't tried SE yet, and
> I guess as the phone is less than 12 months old, it should still be
> covered by their warranty, however, I thought the retailer is responsible,
> and has to deal with any such problems - John Lewis are denying this and
> keep sayingI need to take it up with Orange or SE.
<snip>
>
>
John Lewis as the retailer are responsible, but as you didn't register it's
sim you deprived John Lewis of their phone subsidy from Orange.
If i was a retailer you did that to, i wouldn't want to help you either.

Simply take it to a SE service centre, they will repair it under guarantee.

Try Intec Barnet 0208 216 3838, as a main Club Nokia and SE centre,
they can tell you where your local SE centre is

Steve Terry

"ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message [email protected],
> Harry Stottle <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the
> tallest tower:
>> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> On a more technical note, would it be possible for an engineer to tell the
> difference between a phone that had been unlocked and
> de-branded(software-wise) after market, and one that had been purchased
> un-locked?
> Regards,
> Chris.
>
>
An enginner who couldn't, i wouldn't let anywhere near my phone

Obviously a blind man can tell the difference

It won't matter to a SE centre

Steve Terry

In article <[email protected]>,
"Harry Stottle" <[email protected]> writes:
> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On 01/09/2008 10:16, ChrisM wrote:
> >> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis.
> >
> > Since you bought it from them, it's their responsibility, I'm
> > surprised they are passing the buck, their reputation is generally
> > better.
>
> It could be the fact that the phone has been 'unofficially unlocked,
> even if the fault might have nothing to do with the unlocking. Any
> tampering of any item will usually invalidate any guarantee, and I can't
> see the Sale of Goods Act being any different in this respect.

There's tampering and tampering. If it's strictly software-only, then
claiming the warranty is void is a bit like that PCWorld case where the
customer was refused a fix for his laptop's display hinge because he'd
installed Linux. If what's happened is that the latest version of the
manufacturer's own firmware has been installed, as against some god-awful
branded package, then good has been done to it, not harm.

Did JLP know the phone had been unlocked when warranty assistance was
first sought?
--
SAm.

On 2008-09-01, ChrisM <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> (needs a bit of setting up, so please bear with me...)
>
> Bought a Sony Ericsson W610i about 7 months ago,

[...]

That could be the key point; did you actually buy the phone? SIM-free it
seems to go for around £100
<http://www.buy-mphone.com/acatalog/w610i_sim_free.html>.

I think it's possible that what you actually bought was a service contract
with Orange which included them providing a particular model of handset -
the cost of which, Orange expected to recoup at least in part from the PAYG
top-ups you were expected to pay for over the next year or so.

There may well be something in the terms and conditions of the Orange
contract that was part of the package, to cover the situation you're in
now - most likely to absolve Orange of any responsibility for the handset,
given that you've had it 'unlocked' and never even used the Orange SIM or
tried to register the contract or bought any Orange top-ups for it.

I expect that John Lewis are in the position of agents for Orange, not
retailers of goods or services themselves, in this context.

Sony Ericsson may be responsible to Orange, not to you, as far as any
'guarantee' on the handset is concerned, if what you acquired was a
service contract with Orange rather than a purchase of equipment.

So Orange might be entitled to retain the handset which contractually may
still belong to them, not you, and perhaps issue a replacement - with
their own SIM and branding, of course. Or they might take the view that
as you've so far done nothing to fulfill your side of your contract with
them, that they owe nothing to you. If the handset is 'used' and faulty,
they might decide not to bother trying to get it back from you.

So I think you're probably on your own, and best advised not to make
yourself too much of a nuisance to Lewis's or Orange or Sony Ericsson.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

In message [email protected],
Sam Nelson <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the tallest tower:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Harry Stottle" <[email protected]> writes:
>> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 01/09/2008 10:16, ChrisM wrote:
>>>> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis.
>>>
>>> Since you bought it from them, it's their responsibility, I'm
>>> surprised they are passing the buck, their reputation is generally
>>> better.
>>
>> It could be the fact that the phone has been 'unofficially unlocked,
>> even if the fault might have nothing to do with the unlocking. Any
>> tampering of any item will usually invalidate any guarantee, and I
>> can't see the Sale of Goods Act being any different in this respect.
>
> There's tampering and tampering. If it's strictly software-only, then
> claiming the warranty is void is a bit like that PCWorld case where
> the customer was refused a fix for his laptop's display hinge because
> he'd installed Linux. If what's happened is that the latest version
> of the manufacturer's own firmware has been installed, as against
> some god-awful branded package, then good has been done to it, not
> harm.
>
> Did JLP know the phone had been unlocked when warranty assistance was
> first sought?

That's what I'd have thought too. It is clearly a hardware fault, and
nothing to do with the software, though these days, it seems any excuse to
avoid paying up, and they'll take it!

No, as I stated elsewhere in this thread, JPL are not aware at this stage,
that the phone has been unlocked. I'll not mention it unless I have to!


--
Regards,
Chris.
(Remove Elvis's shoes to email me)

In message [email protected],
Steve Terry <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the tallest tower:

> "ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In message [email protected],
>> Harry Stottle <[email protected]> Proclaimed from
>> the tallest tower:
>>> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
> <snip>
>> On a more technical note, would it be possible for an engineer to
>> tell the difference between a phone that had been unlocked and
>> de-branded(software-wise) after market, and one that had been
>> purchased un-locked?
>> Regards,
>> Chris.
>>
>>
> An enginner who couldn't, i wouldn't let anywhere near my phone
>
> Obviously a blind man can tell the difference
>
> It won't matter to a SE centre
>
> Steve Terry

So to a layman (as far as mobile phones go) with a reasonable grasp of
technical subjects, what is the difference between an 'off the shelf'
unlocked phone, and one that been unlocked and had the default SE firmware
installed after the event? I was under the (obviously incorrect) impression
that they just 'somehow' returned the phone to its manufacturers default
condition (ie removed the SIM lock and any modified (by Orange) firmware)

--
Regards,
Chris.
(Remove Elvis's shoes to email me)

"Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 01/09/2008 11:49, Steve Terry wrote:
>
>> as you didn't register it's
>> sim you deprived John Lewis of their phone subsidy from Orange.
>> If i was a retailer you did that to, i wouldn't want to help you either.
>
> It's a crazy system where retailers allow the customer the option of
> removing the profit after the sale has taken place.
>
>
JL trusted him to register the phone

Retailers like P4U will break your legs if you try to get out of their
shop without registering

Steve Terry

In message [email protected],
Steve Terry <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the tallest tower:

> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 01/09/2008 11:49, Steve Terry wrote:
>>
>>> as you didn't register it's
>>> sim you deprived John Lewis of their phone subsidy from Orange.
>>> If i was a retailer you did that to, i wouldn't want to help you
>>> either.
>>
>> It's a crazy system where retailers allow the customer the option of
>> removing the profit after the sale has taken place.
>>
>>
> JL trusted him to register the phone
>
Then they should say something to that effect when I bought it!
You make it sound as if I set out to defraud them, which I didn't.

AFAIC, I bought a phone off of them. Once that phone is paid for, it's mine
to do what I like with. As a consumer, I'm not aware, (nor should I be
expected to be, unless they notify me at the time of purchase) of any
kick-backs or subsidies or whatever, that exist between the retailer and the
service provider.


--
Regards,
Chris.
(Remove Elvis's shoes to email me)

"ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Hello,
>
> (needs a bit of setting up, so please bear with me...)
>
> Bought a Sony Ericsson W610i about 7 months ago, it's developed a fault with
> the earpiece(ie the bit above the display that you hold to your ear during a
> phone call). If you press on it lightly, the speaker cuts off until you
> relieve the pressure.
> It's not a massive problem, and the phone is perfectly usable, but I'm
> concerned that it's a dodgy connection that is likely to get worse so I want
> to get it sorted whilst the phone is still under warranty...
>
> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis. I then got
> it unlocked so that I could use my existing Virgin Mobile SIM in it, and
> everything has been fine until this fault started.
>
> I phoned John Lewis, but they said I had to take it up with the Service
> Provider, so I phoned Orange, but seeing as I have never registered it with
> them (and I threw away the Orange SIM that came with the phone), fairly
> understandably, they ain't interested. I can't see Virgin wanting to help as
> I didn't buy the phone from them... I haven't tried SE yet, and I guess as
> the phone is less than 12 months old, it should still be covered by their
> warranty, however, I thought the retailer is responsible, and has to deal
> with any such problems - John Lewis are denying this and keep sayingI need
> to take it up with Orange or SE.
>
> Anyone been in this sort if situation, can anyone tell me exactly where I
> stand? Should I speak to John Lewis and insiist they sort it out??
>
> If I DO finish up sending it to SE(or John Lewis), do you think I am likely
> to get either my original phone back or a generic unlocked one? I don't
> really want another Orange one that I have to pay to get unlocked again.
>
> I know I can speak to the CAB, and I'll probably do so later on today, but
> I'm interested in other peoples thoughts and expericences on this.
>
> Any input welcomed...

As the retailer it is John Lewis who are responsible, it has nothing to do with the service provider.

"Steve Terry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
> John Lewis as the retailer are responsible, but as you didn't register it's
> sim you deprived John Lewis of their phone subsidy from Orange.
> If i was a retailer you did that to, i wouldn't want to help you either.

Unless there is a contract that states this must be done the OP has done nothing wrong, so claiming he has deprived anyone of anything is a little harsh. Unless this was even pointed out at point of sale the vast majority of people wouldn't even be aware of it.

Don't blame the customer for retailers and networks stupidity. Luckily you're not a retailer, and if you were I'd certainly take my custom elsewhere.

"ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> In message [email protected]net,
> Andy Burns <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the tallest
> tower:
>
>> On 01/09/2008 10:16, ChrisM wrote:
>>
>>> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis.
>>
>> Since you bought it from them, it's their responsibility, I'm
>> surprised they are passing the buck, their reputation is generally
>> better.
>
> Well, yes, that's what I thought. I got the impression from the lady I
> spoke to that Mobile Phones are a specific exception.


they are not allowed to make special exceptions from the law!



--
Gareth.

that fly...... is your magic wand....

ChrisM wrote:
> Hello,
>
> (needs a bit of setting up, so please bear with me...)
>
> Bought a Sony Ericsson W610i about 7 months ago, it's developed a fault with
> the earpiece(ie the bit above the display that you hold to your ear during a
> phone call). If you press on it lightly, the speaker cuts off until you
> relieve the pressure.
> It's not a massive problem, and the phone is perfectly usable, but I'm
> concerned that it's a dodgy connection that is likely to get worse so I want
> to get it sorted whilst the phone is still under warranty...
>
> I originally bought the phone as an Orange PAYG from John Lewis. I then got
> it unlocked so that I could use my existing Virgin Mobile SIM in it, and
> everything has been fine until this fault started.
>
> I phoned John Lewis, but they said I had to take it up with the Service
> Provider, so I phoned Orange, but seeing as I have never registered it with
> them (and I threw away the Orange SIM that came with the phone), fairly
> understandably, they ain't interested. I can't see Virgin wanting to help as
> I didn't buy the phone from them... I haven't tried SE yet, and I guess as
> the phone is less than 12 months old, it should still be covered by their
> warranty, however, I thought the retailer is responsible, and has to deal
> with any such problems - John Lewis are denying this and keep sayingI need
> to take it up with Orange or SE.
>
> Anyone been in this sort if situation, can anyone tell me exactly where I
> stand? Should I speak to John Lewis and insiist they sort it out??
>
> If I DO finish up sending it to SE(or John Lewis), do you think I am likely
> to get either my original phone back or a generic unlocked one? I don't
> really want another Orange one that I have to pay to get unlocked again.
>
> I know I can speak to the CAB, and I'll probably do so later on today, but
> I'm interested in other peoples thoughts and expericences on this.
>
> Any input welcomed...
>
>
>
It is JLP's responsibility.

They have a very good reputation for After sales service.

However, in many cases it is easier to ask the manufacturer to repair an
item.

The two options are - take it into JLP who send it to Orange who send it
to a Service Department who send it back the same route, or contact the
manufacturer who asks you to send it to a Service Agent who sends it
back to you.

The second is easier on everyone [assuming all goes well]. But if not,
the responsibility is still with JLP.

As you took JLP's advice and contacted Orange, I assume that you didnt
explain to JLP the non-Orange problem.

Contact SE - it may be a generic fault that they acknowledge. If not....

Try JLP again - explain why Orange are not in the loop. If they are not
helpful, ask to speak to a supervisor as this is not a standard [in the
script] situation.

I would be surprised if they are not cooperative. They know the law but
they do try to sell on reputation.

All the best

Flop

If all else fails try uk.legal (fast answer) or uk.legal.moderated
(right answer)

"Steve Terry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "ChrisM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In message [email protected],
>> Harry Stottle <[email protected]> Proclaimed from the
>> tallest tower:
>>> "Andy Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
> <snip>
>> On a more technical note, would it be possible for an engineer to tell
>> the difference between a phone that had been unlocked and
>> de-branded(software-wise) after market, and one that had been purchased
>> un-locked?
>> Regards,
>> Chris.
>>
>>
> An enginner who couldn't, i wouldn't let anywhere near my phone
>
> Obviously a blind man can tell the difference

Not entirely true. Unless the chassis has any branding, or the flash has
been botched, even the service menu nor service software will give no
indication of the original status.

> It won't matter to a SE centre

More than likely.

--
Unlock Your Phone's Potential
www.UselessInfo.org.uk
www.ThePhoneLocker.co.uk
www.GSM-Solutions.co.uk