Phone Discounts vs Lower Monthly Rates

[email protected] wrote:

>>>No, they aren't. They only have one customer. Sprint.
>>>So the customer can dictate terms and prices.
>>
>>No, they don't, they sell to other carriers too.
>
> They have only one customer for sprint phones. Sprint.


And as I've said numerous times (and you've conveniently ignored),
Sprint isn't the only carrier in the US.

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[email protected] wrote:
>>I call Bull****.
>>
>>The V60v sold by Sprint is essentially identical to the V60 models sold by
>>Verizon, T-Mobile and others. With Sprint-specific firmware, yes; but most
>>other cellular carriers have the handset manufacturers do custom firmware too.
>
>
> The phone manufacturers only sell to carriers. You guys know full
> well what I meant.


Yes we did, and as soon as we found gaping holes in your argument, you
decided to change its parameters.


> Wouldn't it be better for competition on equipment if Walmart had a
> big selection of phones that could be used on Sprint but that Sprint
> didn't have any involvement with?

Actually no. Without tight integration, you don't get things like
Vision access, PRL updates, or firwmare over the air updates. 1xRTT
data provisioning can't really happen, because the carrier has no idea
what phone a customer might be using on their network or its capabilities.

Being able to buy any phone and plug it in the socket worked just fine
in the days when the phone company provided just a dial tone, but we've
gone way beyond that now. Customers are demanding ringtones, Java apps
and data services, some of which only operate on certain phones and for
which no unified standard exists. THAT is why the integration is there.


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On Thu, 19 May 2005 17:25:26 -0700, Steve Sobol <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> A retailer can only buy Sprint phones from Sprint and nowhere else.
>> A manufacturer can only sell to carriers, not to retailers. Not to
>> the public. Not to online sellers. The number of customers is very
>> small. Competition is largely stifled.
>
>I don't believe you're correct. In fact, I'm 99% sure that the carrier's
>authorized retail agents buy their own phones.

I doubt it. I think all Sprint branded phones are sold to Sprint, and
distributed by them to their retailers. They might be shipped from
the manufacturer, but the paperwork and the sale surely goes through
the carrier.

You can't get a Verizon phone activated on Sprint under any
circumstances.

>Hm. Think about it - does Virgin
>Mobile sell any phone models that Sprint also sells?
I don't think so. They are all different. I don't think there is any
way to use a Virgin Mobile on a Sprint plan either.
>
>Sprint has to approve them
>for use on the SPCS network. But Sprint doesn't sell most of them themselves.
>
>Some big nationwide chains only sell the same models the carriers do. However,
>I know of smaller retail agents who sell models the carriers don't.
In GSM, sure. I have seen that too. But not on CDMA. AFAIK.
>
>I really think you ought to give it a rest.
Yeah, getting pretty circular!

I just said it would be *better for competition* if all the handsets
weren't filtered through Sprint, and branded that way. If things were
unbundled and you could buy whatever compatible phone you want.
Competition would be enhanced. Surely you agree that would lead to
more choice and more players.

Here in the US we have CDMA, TDMA and GSM. Of those GSM is the only
network you can buy any compatible handset anywhere you like and put
your carrier SIM in.

[email protected] wrote:

> I doubt it. I think all Sprint branded phones are sold to Sprint, and
> distributed by them to their retailers. They might be shipped from
> the manufacturer, but the paperwork and the sale surely goes through
> the carrier.

In that case, Radio Shack (for example) is paying a ton more than they should
for the phones.

I know people in regional management at CompUSA, a Sprint and T-Mobile
retailer, and if you want, I can ask them whether they get the phones from
Sprint or not.

> You can't get a Verizon phone activated on Sprint under any
> circumstances.

But you can move phones between carriers in some cases. Verizon and Alltel
allow phones they didn't sell on their network, as long as the technology is
compatible.

> I don't think so. They are all different. I don't think there is any
> way to use a Virgin Mobile on a Sprint plan either.

Technically, there is a way. Unfortunately, Sprint's *policy* is not to allow
it (I say "unfortunately" because VM has some cool phones).

>>Some big nationwide chains only sell the same models the carriers do. However,
>>I know of smaller retail agents who sell models the carriers don't.
>
> In GSM, sure. I have seen that too. But not on CDMA. AFAIK.

Saw it when I lived in the Cleveland area, with a couple Verizon agents at my
local mall... and check over in alt.cellular.verizon, and you'll find some
people who have bought Motorola 270c's to use on Verizon, and Verizon never
sold the 270c.

>>I really think you ought to give it a rest.
>
> Yeah, getting pretty circular!

Yes. We keep on saying the same thing over and over.

> I just said it would be *better for competition* if all the handsets
> weren't filtered through Sprint, and branded that way.

And we said that that isn't what happens. But I think it's probably time to let
the matter drop.


>If things were
> unbundled and you could buy whatever compatible phone you want.
> Competition would be enhanced. Surely you agree that would lead to
> more choice and more players.

I'd like to see it happen. I'd like to see *none* of the carriers locking
phones. I'd like to see fewer restrictions. It isn't going to happen.


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JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [email protected] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"

Yes, competition is good. Who was that was saying that we have too
many wireless carriers in this country?

There are not many who would want a verizon phone activated on Sprint
PCS. It would only make and receive calls. Vision would not work.

If I remember correctly, there were a few Sprint PCS phones that were
sold at RadioShack, but not at Sprint PCS stores.

RadioShack does pay a ton for Sprint PCS and verizon phones. They get
reimbursed for any instant rebates after the sale.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:59:44 GMT, Jerome Zelinske
<[email protected]> wrote:

> There are not many who would want a verizon phone activated on Sprint
>PCS. It would only make and receive calls. Vision would not work.
Maybe, but lots of the phones being sold by Verizon now have OTA
programming. Not sure the extent of that programming, but if the load
on the phone can be completely changed that way there is no reason why
phones should not be carrier independent within technologies.

I agree, VZW has a great selection. The best. So many it is pretty
hard to make a decision. Heh.

I would not say verizon has the best selection. Sprint PCS does not do
over the air programming. They don't have many people going to the
stores to have their phones reprogrammed either.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:59:44 GMT, Jerome Zelinske
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> There are not many who would want a verizon phone activated on Sprint
>>PCS. It would only make and receive calls. Vision would not work.
>
> Maybe, but lots of the phones being sold by Verizon now have OTA
> programming.

But a large number of phones sold by Sprint aren't sold by Verizon and Verizon
couldn't flash those phones with VZW firmware, because VZW firmware doesn't
*exist* for those phones, so you'd be stuck with whatever you can get.

The best example is the Sanyo phones. Sprint is the only US carrier that sells
Sanyo.

There are some phones that would probably work. The Samsung VI660 and the
Verizon Samsung A650 are the same phone. But even then, there are some features
Sprint enables in the 660 that Verizon doesn't in the 650, so *if* Verizon is
willing to flash your 660, you'll lose functionality.

> I agree, VZW has a great selection. The best. So many it is pretty
> hard to make a decision. Heh.

I hope that was sarcasm. Verizon has a solid network, and IMHO their customer
service is the best in the cellular industry, but they are known for releasing
phones at a glacially slow pace.

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [email protected] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"

On Sat, 21 May 2005 17:23:45 -0700, Steve Sobol <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2005 12:59:44 GMT, Jerome Zelinske
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> There are not many who would want a verizon phone activated on Sprint
>>>PCS. It would only make and receive calls. Vision would not work.
>>
>> Maybe, but lots of the phones being sold by Verizon now have OTA
>> programming.
>
>But a large number of phones sold by Sprint aren't sold by Verizon and Verizon
>couldn't flash those phones with VZW firmware, because VZW firmware doesn't
>*exist* for those phones, so you'd be stuck with whatever you can get.
>
>The best example is the Sanyo phones. Sprint is the only US carrier that sells
>Sanyo.
>
>There are some phones that would probably work. The Samsung VI660 and the
>Verizon Samsung A650 are the same phone. But even then, there are some features
>Sprint enables in the 660 that Verizon doesn't in the 650, so *if* Verizon is
>willing to flash your 660, you'll lose functionality.

But if the phones were unbundled the OTA capability would be used by
the carriers to activate the phones their customers have, so they can
make money as carriers. I would bet the OTA capability would emerge,
and pretty fast.

>> I agree, VZW has a great selection. The best. So many it is pretty
>> hard to make a decision. Heh.
>
>I hope that was sarcasm. Verizon has a solid network, and IMHO their customer
>service is the best in the cellular industry, but they are known for releasing
>phones at a glacially slow pace.
No, it wasn't sarcasm. The Verizon store in Brea must have over 50
phone models on display. Maybe lots more. It's unbelievable.

VZW does have some weird things they do. Like those Moto V710s, where
they disabled features Motorola put in the phone so they can charge
for them. After people own them! Not good karma on their part.

A friend of mine just went from Sprint to VZW, he says they are trying
to nickel-and-dime him all the time.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 13:08:51 GMT, Jerome Zelinske
<[email protected]> wrote:
> RadioShack does pay a ton for Sprint PCS and verizon phones. They get
>reimbursed for any instant rebates after the sale.

Radio Shack manager told me yesterday that they are charged $120 for
Sanyo 8200s, that they then sell for $229. After 2 weeks they get
paid $200 more for the activation.

Sprint ships them to them, they don't get any Sprint phones in their
regular shipment, all from Sprint direct. Sprint controls the retail
prices completely.

[email protected] wrote:

> But if the phones were unbundled the OTA capability would be used by
> the carriers to activate the phones their customers have, so they can
> make money as carriers. I would bet the OTA capability would emerge,
> and pretty fast.

Probably, but it won't happen.

>>>I agree, VZW has a great selection. The best. So many it is pretty
>>>hard to make a decision. Heh.
>>
>>I hope that was sarcasm. Verizon has a solid network, and IMHO their customer
>>service is the best in the cellular industry, but they are known for releasing
>>phones at a glacially slow pace.
>
> No, it wasn't sarcasm. The Verizon store in Brea must have over 50
> phone models on display. Maybe lots more. It's unbelievable.

Come up to Victorville. The last time I was there, they had around 15. That's
more typical of a VZW corporate store.

> VZW does have some weird things they do. Like those Moto V710s, where
> they disabled features Motorola put in the phone so they can charge
> for them. After people own them! Not good karma on their part.
>
> A friend of mine just went from Sprint to VZW, he says they are trying
> to nickel-and-dime him all the time.

Yes. Which is never acceptable, but is somewhat less obnoxious when you aren't
already paying top dollar. VZW's coverage is often worth the extra price that
you will pay for it, but to nickel-and-dime on top of that is ridiculous.

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://JustThe.net/ - 888.480.4NET (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / [email protected] / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"The wisdom of a fool won't set you free"
--New Order, "Bizarre Love Triangle"

On Sat, 21 May 2005 19:10:49 -0700, Steve Sobol <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>
>> No, it wasn't sarcasm. The Verizon store in Brea must have over 50
>> phone models on display. Maybe lots more. It's unbelievable.
>
>Come up to Victorville. The last time I was there, they had around 15. That's
>more typical of a VZW corporate store.

Probably. That particular store is very chaotic. Customers wall to
wall, employees too. My friend who just switched to VZW got mad at
them when I took him in there. The place is very noisy and active.
Hard to look at phones or even think.

He had to switch to VZW, his wife is on Verizon and she has a year or
more left on her contract.

I bet she would save $40 a month with F&F on Sprint however. She is
on the phone all the time.