Do not buy gadgets having proprietary batteries

Mark F <[email protected]> wrote:
>Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?

They sure can, but those would be of very limited use, because the
typical voltage of a LiIon cell is 3.6V, more then twice that of a
standard batterie and high enough to blow up many devices.

jue

---

› See More: Do not buy gadgets having proprietary batteries

"BillW50" <[email protected]> wrote:

>In news:[email protected],
>Mark F typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:50:23 -0500:
>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>
>Eveready sells Lithium in AA size since '88.
>
>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A96E948260

But the question was about a Lithium-Ion battery. Why not a standard
AAA or AA size L-Ion battery to plug into your camera or toy? Because
they require some electronic circuitry to function safely.
-------------------------------------
"Li-ion chemistry is not as safe as nickel metal hydride or
nickel-cadmium and a Li-ion cell requires several mandatory safety
devices to be built in before it can be considered safe for use
outside of a laboratory. These are: shut-down separator (for
overtemperature), tear-away tab (for internal pressure), vent
(pressure relief), and thermal interrupt
(overcurrent/overcharging).[14] The devices take away useful space
inside the cells, and add an additional layer of unreliability.
Typically, their action is to permanently and irreversibly disable the
cell. The reason for these safety devices in Li-ion cells is because
there is both a source of heat coming from the anode while in use, and
a potential source of oxygen in the cathode. Recent technology
including safety implementations or the redesigning of the electrodes
have been developed to solve these problems, greatly reducing or
eliminating the risk of fire."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

In news:[email protected],
Jürgen Exner typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:42:18 -0800:
> Mark F <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>
> They sure can, but those would be of very limited use, because the
> typical voltage of a LiIon cell is 3.6V, more then twice that of a
> standard batterie and high enough to blow up many devices.

Hi jue! But they could sell Li-Ion AA and include one or two blanks. Meaning
looks like AA but are fake cells that are shorted. Thus you use one Li-Ion
AA and one or two shorted fake cells in devices. It would only work in
devices that use the batteries in series which virtually everything does
with AA size anyway.

I have a radio that uses 10 AA batteries and two fakes. Or 12 AA Ni-Cads and
no fakes. It was a Radio Shack walkie talkie from the 70's actually.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In news:[email protected],
AJL typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:30:01 -0700:
> "BillW50" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In news:[email protected],
>> Mark F typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:50:23 -0500:
>>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>>
>> Eveready sells Lithium in AA size since '88.
>>
>> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A96E948260
>
> But the question was about a Lithium-Ion battery. Why not a standard
> AAA or AA size L-Ion battery to plug into your camera or toy? Because
> they require some electronic circuitry to function safely.
> -------------------------------------
> "Li-ion chemistry is not as safe as nickel metal hydride or
> nickel-cadmium and a Li-ion cell requires several mandatory safety
> devices to be built in before it can be considered safe for use
> outside of a laboratory. These are: shut-down separator (for
> overtemperature), tear-away tab (for internal pressure), vent
> (pressure relief), and thermal interrupt
> (overcurrent/overcharging).[14] The devices take away useful space
> inside the cells, and add an additional layer of unreliability.
> Typically, their action is to permanently and irreversibly disable the
> cell. The reason for these safety devices in Li-ion cells is because
> there is both a source of heat coming from the anode while in use, and
> a potential source of oxygen in the cathode. Recent technology
> including safety implementations or the redesigning of the electrodes
> have been developed to solve these problems, greatly reducing or
> eliminating the risk of fire."
>
> Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

All true! Even Ni-MH sports some dangers as well. But not as bad as Li-Ion
batteries. Here is a video when a Li-Ion battery safety fails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC0UWIYswKI

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"BillW50" <[email protected]> wrote:
>In news:[email protected],
>Jürgen Exner typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:42:18 -0800:
>> Mark F <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>>
>> They sure can, but those would be of very limited use, because the
>> typical voltage of a LiIon cell is 3.6V, more then twice that of a
>> standard batterie and high enough to blow up many devices.
>
>Hi jue! But they could sell Li-Ion AA and include one or two blanks. Meaning
>looks like AA but are fake cells that are shorted. Thus you use one Li-Ion
>AA and one or two shorted fake cells in devices.

Nice idea, but can you image the "average person" trying to figure out,
which cells go where? After all, if it's a dud, then not using a dud but
a real cell should give more power, right?
A cockaigne for lawyers because of all those damaged devices :-((

jue

In news:[email protected],
Jürgen Exner typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:07:03 -0800:
> "BillW50" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In news:[email protected],
>> Jürgen Exner typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:42:18 -0800:
>>> Mark F <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>>>
>>> They sure can, but those would be of very limited use, because the
>>> typical voltage of a LiIon cell is 3.6V, more then twice that of a
>>> standard batterie and high enough to blow up many devices.
>>
>> Hi jue! But they could sell Li-Ion AA and include one or two blanks.
>> Meaning looks like AA but are fake cells that are shorted. Thus you
>> use one Li-Ion AA and one or two shorted fake cells in devices.
>
> Nice idea, but can you image the "average person" trying to figure
> out, which cells go where? After all, if it's a dud, then not using a
> dud but a real cell should give more power, right?
> A cockaigne for lawyers because of all those damaged devices :-((

So true, so true! Probably why we will never see anything like this.

--
Bill
Asus EEE PC 8GB
Windows XP SP2 and Xandros Linux


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:30:44 -0600, "BillW50" <[email protected]> wrote:

> In news:[email protected],
> Mark F typed on Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:50:23 -0500:
> > Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>
> Eveready sells Lithium in AA size since '88.
I didn't realize that it was that long, but I have had some since
before 2003. I should have said
"Why can't the devices use the already available rechargeable's
that are available in the same technologies in standard sizes?"
>
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A96E948260

Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Mark F <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?
>
> They sure can, but those would be of very limited use, because the
> typical voltage of a LiIon cell is 3.6V, more then twice that of a
> standard batterie and high enough to blow up many devices.

You can already buy Li-Ion sized rechargeable AA cells, but of course
they're not all that useful since they are a different voltage than
standard AA cells. I suppose you could put one dummy cell and one real
cell in series in devices that use two batteries, but that's rather
wasteful. Then you run into the problem of recharging, since the battery
needs to be in a pack with a charge controller chip.

NiMH batteries, at 1.2 to 1.25V were close enough to carbon zinc and
manganese dioxide voltage of 1.5V, especially since the latter have a
linear voltage discharge curve.

Complicating the move to some standard Li-Ion packs is the fact that the
higher end camera manufacturers are now building smart-batteries with
their own proprietary interface, as laptop manufacturers have been doing
for years.

Would make a lot of sense. But people would try to charge them in NiMH
chargers and all that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mark F" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Why cant the Li-Ion batteries be in standard sizes?

My digicam takes AA cells. That's standard enough for me.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mark F" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I didn't realize that it was that long, but I have had some since
before 2003. I should have said
"Why can't the devices use the already available rechargeable's
that are available in the same technologies in standard sizes?"

[crap snipped]

I'll buy what the hell I like. Piss off.

Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:
> [crap snipped]
>
> I'll buy what the hell I like. Piss off.
>
> Ivor
>

[email protected] wrote:

<snip>

While the proprietary nature of these Li-Ion batteries may be
undesirable, there are overwhelming advantages to using Li-Ion batteries
to something like NiMH AA batteries in devices such as cameras.

This was illustrated once again to me this week:

Two of my BP511 batteries, after 4 years, stopped holding a charge for
long enough. These are used in my D-SLR, my camcorder, and an old P&S
camera that I still use (G2).

On Wednesday at 4 p.m. I ordered three 2000mAH BP511 batteries (11.99
each), one 4500mAH BP535 (an extended life battery for the camcorder
that is compatible with the BP511 but longer length) for 29.99, and a
spare NB5L battery for my P&S for $10.99. Shipping was free 2 day FedEx.
On Thursday at about 1:45 p.m., FedEx arrived at my office with the
batteries (less than 24 hours).

Let's analyze the cost. a 2000mAH, 7.4V battery pack is 14,800 mWH and
cost $12. Compare that to four 2000mAH, 1.2V Sanyo Eneloop cells at 9600
mWH, which cost $10 from Thomas distributing.

Eneloop AA 4 pack: $10/9600 mWH =0.104¢/mWH
BP511: $12/14,800 mWH=0.081¢/mWH

You can't analyze the cost of the NB5L battery because it would not be
possible to make such a small camera that used AA cells. Similarly, you
can't analyze the cost of the BP535 that way because would not be
practical to make a camcorder that took 14 AA batteries.

Now on the flip side, had I went into Fry's to buy these batteries, both
would have cost more, but the BP511 would have been over 2.5x the price
($30) while the Eneloops would have been only 1.2x the price. OTOH,
there are $6 BP511 batteries available, which I haven't tried,
preferring to order from a supplier that had provided quality product to
me in the past.

This is just the cost of course. If you want to look at the big picture,
Google "nimh versu li-ion" and click on "I'm Feeling Lucky." The
top-rated Google web site on the subject will appear, and it outlines
all the trade-offs of standard NiMH batteries versus proprietary Li-Ion
batteries. OMG, how did my humble site become the #1 Google rated site!

Here's the overview of the pros and cons of each type of battery:

20 Advantages of Li-Ion Batteries over NiMH Batteries

1. Much lower self-discharge rate (except for newer Hybrio and
eneloop NiMH cells, which trade low self-discharge for lower capacity)
2. More charge/discharge cycles
3. Usage pattern and charge regimen is better suited to digital
cameras (and other devices where the usual pattern is partial
discharge/full charge)
4. Self-Discharge rate is constant during the life of the battery
(NiMH batteries steadily increase in self-discharge over the life of the
battery)
5. Greater energy density by weight
6. Greater energy density by volume (AA batteries are not practical
for sub-compact and ultra-compact cameras because of size, and AAA
batteries are not practical because of capacity)
7. Greater number of shots per WH
8. Faster shot to shot times, especially when using flash
9. More convenient to swap and charge than AA cells (no fumbling
with multiple cells, and keeping track of which battery is in which set)*
10. Far better cold weather performance
11. Far better performance at high temperatures
12. Devices using Li-Ion batteries are more reliable than devices
using AA batteries (unlikely to have a battery door flip open and have
the batteries scatter all over)*
13. Li-Ion batteries can be left in devices that are not used for
long periods of time
14. Li-Ion batteries have protection circuitry built into the pack
and do not rely on the charger for this protection
15. Accurate charge level gauge is included in most Li-Ion powered
cameras, but is not possible in NiMH powered cameras (low-battery
indicator only)
16. Li-Ion batteries do not suffer from polarity reversal
17. Li-Ion batteries do not suffer from the "dud" cell problem
18. No need to "Battery Match" cells of similar capacity
19. Rechargeable battery and charger come with the camera, versus
buying a charger and batteries for an AA powered camera
20. Smaller and lighter chargers

* This advantage is over AA batteries in general, not specifically NiMH
AA batteries. The advantage applies to AA batteries of other types as
well (Alkaline, Lithium, etc.).

8 Advantages of NiMH Batteries over Li-Ion Batteries

1. Li-Ion packs are proprietary, you can't substitute disposable AA
cells if your battery goes dead in the middle of nowhere, and you have
no spare battery, and no AC or DC power for charging*
2. Longer shelf life*
3. Faster charging (though high-rate charging significantly reduces
battery life)
4. AA cells will always be available, while less popular Li-Ion
packs may be discontinued*
5. Multiple devices that use AA or AAA cells can share batteries and
chargers (though there are Li-Ion chargers that can charge many
different battery types by the use of adapter plates)*
6. Two NiMH AA cells can be charged, albeit slowly, from a 5 volt
USB port, while larger Li-Ion packs (7.4V) cannot.
7. You can buy NiMH batteries at a good price from stores like
Wal-Mart and Fry's but for Li-Ion you must order the battery packs from
an on-line retailer that specializes in batteries in order to obtain
good quality packs at good prices.
8. Hot Shoe Flash and Camera Can Use the Same Type of Battery

SMS gloated:
> OMG, how did my humble site become the #1 Google rated site!

Read on... My apologies for this off-topic crosspost, but just to cover
all the groups SMS is polluting... here are a few repeated notes for
search engines and anyone tempted to take SMS too seriously, or visit
his famous, highly accoladed websites..

A quick look around shows the following facts - if you can be bothered
reading it, make your own judgment about this person, his real level of
experience, and his morals.

SMS, aka
Steven M. Scharf
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected] ([email protected])
[email protected] ([email protected])
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
Digital Camcorder Academician
Digital Camera Academician
Bicycle Academician
Dr. Digital
Dr Sumner C. Roberts
....has an interesting reputation as the author of a multitude of
websites that are created apparently for link-income purposes and usenet
debates, and are then abandoned. Examples of some of his old efforts:
http://www.digitalslrinfo.com (abandoned 2006)
http://nordicgroup.us/fold/ (abandoned 2002)
http://nordicgroup.us/rack.htm (abandoned 2001)
http://nordicgroup.us/chargers/ (? abandoned 2007)
That site rather amusingly states "This is a non-profit, non-commercial
site; I don't sell anything" at the top, yet at the bottom, "The above
links are affiliates and I receive 3-5% compensation from these companies"
http://www.nordicgroup.us/digicam/ (abandoned 2006)
http://nordicgroup.us/camcorder (abandoned 2004)
Again, that one states - "This is a non-commercial, informational site.
Nothing is sold on this site. No advertising is accepted.", yet at the
bottom there are the Amazon and Adorama ads and links and he states "I
receive compensation from these companies"
http://www.nordicgroup.us/tripod/ (abandoned 2003)

Here are some of his other creations:
http://nordicgroup.us/
http://nordicbicycleproducts.com/
http://www.bicyclecoffeesystems.com/
http://bicycleluggageracks.com/
http://bicyclelighting.com/
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/
http://nordicgroup.us/commutebike/
http://batterydata.com/

Yes, everything from coffee on your bike to travel tripods and
camcorders and the amazing one-track expertise he shows in recommending
the exact same cameras and batteries to anyone who asks, no matter what
their needs - yes, Mr Scharf is a whiz of all he sees. It's probably
little wonder that he actually doesn't have the time to actually use or
test any of the things he describes or recommends. Are there any image
galleries of his work? No. (Do correct me here, Dr Roberts... er
sorry, I mean Mr Scharf - don't be shy..)

Anyway, his most recent creation appears to be:
http://www.freewebs.com/dslrversusps
This site gained a small burst of notoriety here when Mr Scharf
recommended it.. without declaring it as his. At that time, the site
named the author as the "Digital Camera Academician", a name SMS/Steven
M. Scharf uses elsewhere, eg http://www.nordicgroup.us/digicam/ and on
the dpreview forums. After he was exposed as the author, he got a
little upset and decided to place a number of false 'accolades' on his
site. He misquoted comments from people here (including me). When
*that* was exposed, he changed the names slightly (I'm now "Mark
Thomasville" - how amusing!) and added a few ridiculous ones, presumably
to indicate that it was all just a harmless joke from the start.

Then the name "Digital Camera Academician" vanished from that page and
hey presto, the site is now penned by the self-proclaimed, highly
experienced, "Dr Sumner C. Roberts". Despite his 30 years in the
photography and digital imaging trade, 'Dr Roberts' of course has
absolutely no web history. Gee, do you think it might be SMS still? Out
of interest, in Australia it is illegal to use false identities and
qualifications to deceive - not in the US?

Anyway, here are a few words from Mr Scharf himself:

"Steven M. Scharf is one of Earth's leading experts on bicycle lighting.
An electrical engineer by trade, he enjoys cycling and designing
lighting systems. He lives in Silicon Valley and works for a small
semiconductor company."

"Steven M. Scharf is one of Earth's leading experts on Li-Ion and NiMH
batteries, and chargers. An electrical engineer by trade, he enjoys
cycling and designing bicycle lighting systems. He lives in Silicon
Valley and works for a small semiconductor company"

"Steven Scharf is an electrical engineer living in Silicon Valley,
specializing in portable power design for embedded systems. He has
worked for GTE, Xerox, McDonnell Douglas, Alcatel, National
Semiconductor, and Transmeta."

"Earth's Leading (and only) Authority on Water Bottle Cage Mounting
since 2002"

"Earth's Independent and Authoritative Source for Digital Camera Battery
Information"

"One of Earth's Leading Authorities on Vehicle Racks"

...(only one of them?)

and here's the last word from his very best friend at
http://www.freewebs.com/dslrversusps:

"Dr. Digital is Dr. Sumner C. Roberts, a professional photographer who
has been shooting professionally since 1980. He has photographed over
800 weddings and other life events, as well as doing studio photography.
He has written articles for numerous magazines on the subject of how to
select a digital camera. Dr. Digital lives in Zephyrhills (like the
water), Florida."


Yes, that is 'Steven M. Scharf'. Would you buy anything from this man?
Click on his affiliate links? Believe anything he posts?


PS - I am happy to be corrected on anything posted above - anyone, Mr
Scharf included, who wishes to offer verifiable information to the
contrary, is welcome to contact me. I'll very happily apologise if any
of it is incorrect or misquoted. Needless to say, I have cached copies
just in case any webpages are altered to protect the guilty, as he has
already proven he will do. (O:

PPS - The trail on Mr Scharf goes MUCH further than shown above. I'm
being kind by stopping here.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:41:31 +1000, Mark Thomas
<markt@_don't_spam_marktphoto.com> wrote:

>SMS gloated:
>> OMG, how did my humble site become the #1 Google rated site!
>
>Read on... My apologies for this off-topic crosspost, but just to cover
>all the groups SMS is polluting... here are a few repeated notes for
>search engines and anyone tempted to take SMS too seriously, or visit
>his famous, highly accoladed websites..
>
>A quick look around shows the following facts - if you can be bothered
>reading it, make your own judgment about this person, his real level of
> experience, and his morals.

Scharf may come across as a bit strange, but the obsessive stalking
shown in your post comes across as just as strange. I can't imagine
doing that much research on someone whose postings don't affect you
and can be skipped with a single keystroke.

I live within an hour and half's drive of Zephyrhills. For a suitable
fee, I'll drive over there research whether or not "Dr Roberts"
exists. The fee would be minimal; gas money, at most. I'm sure I'd
enjoy the outing because of the photo opportunities along the way.

I'd make it a day-trip and takes some shots from Bok Tower, try for
some character shots of strawberry field migrant workers, and take
some shots of the antique airplanes at "The Fantasy of Flight"
attraction.

I may not add to your voluminous data base on Scharf, but you seem to
be interested in the slightest details.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida